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  3. The sheer number of options is the best thing about Pathfinder. It's also the worst.

The sheer number of options is the best thing about Pathfinder. It's also the worst.

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  • Z ziggurat@jlai.lu

    How easy it is for someone not knowing the game to build or even play a character? It’s great to have thousands of option, except when you join a game, don’t know yet all the option available and find up latter that your build doesn’t work. Is it a risk in pathfinder, or are the options robust enough to neither close path early nor have necessary combo?

    K This user is from outside of this forum
    K This user is from outside of this forum
    kichae@lemmy.ca
    wrote last edited by
    #14

    It’s really easy so long as you a) start at level 1 or 2 and avoid building out too far ahead, b) build to a character concept rather than try to optimize mechanically, c) avoid options released in adventures. Oh, and d), understand that retraining is actually baked into the rules.

    Adventure character content is less rigorously tested, and mostly amounts to professional homebrew. It’s often super focused on the scenarios presented in the adventute and significantly less applicable in general.

    Focusing on mechanical optimjzation rather than character concept often leads to madness, since feats are generally well placed within the same power bands (there are few stand out or trap options). For a crunvhy game, it’s often best played descriptively.

    Characters become mechanically more complex every level or two, so starting at higher levels can be very overwhelming for new players. Building out a higher level character means choosing a lot of feats, and often the utility of those feats is only really understood through play.

    1 Reply Last reply
    8
    • V vespair@lemmy.zip

      Imo bloat and power creep were the problem, not prestige classes. I still love prestige classes and 3/3.5 overall.

      ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]P This user is from outside of this forum
      ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]P This user is from outside of this forum
      ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]
      wrote last edited by
      #15

      Yes, prestige classes were one of the things contributing to bloat and power creep, especially as they weren’t even a particularly elegant solution to the problem they were solving - archetypes actually let you do mixed or more specific character ideas in the way prestige classes were meant to, and dedications open that customisation even further. As much as I love 3.x I’m not blind to its many failings.

      V 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]P ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]

        Yes, prestige classes were one of the things contributing to bloat and power creep, especially as they weren’t even a particularly elegant solution to the problem they were solving - archetypes actually let you do mixed or more specific character ideas in the way prestige classes were meant to, and dedications open that customisation even further. As much as I love 3.x I’m not blind to its many failings.

        V This user is from outside of this forum
        V This user is from outside of this forum
        vespair@lemmy.zip
        wrote last edited by vespair@lemmy.zip
        #16

        I’m not either, I just don’t think prestige classes were the failure. Yes, later prestige were one way power creep and bloat happened, but they aren’t inherent to the state.

        That being said, I must admit I’ve only dabbled in PF1 very briefly, so I guess I need to ask for clarity - are archetypes different than subclasses? It was my understand (again, from very far outside) that that was just what PF2 was calling subclasses, and if so, that’s a very different thing than a prestige class in my mind. A part of the appeal of prestige classes to me is worldbuilding groups built of a prestige classes made up of many different classes; I love that Arcane Trickster might have wizard levels, or sorcerer levels, or bard levels, etc… So maybe I’m just out of the loop here - are archetypes class specific or they actually the PF2 class-agnostic viable replacement for prestige and I really should give PF2 a look?

        KichaeK ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]P 2 Replies Last reply
        0
        • V vespair@lemmy.zip

          I’m not either, I just don’t think prestige classes were the failure. Yes, later prestige were one way power creep and bloat happened, but they aren’t inherent to the state.

          That being said, I must admit I’ve only dabbled in PF1 very briefly, so I guess I need to ask for clarity - are archetypes different than subclasses? It was my understand (again, from very far outside) that that was just what PF2 was calling subclasses, and if so, that’s a very different thing than a prestige class in my mind. A part of the appeal of prestige classes to me is worldbuilding groups built of a prestige classes made up of many different classes; I love that Arcane Trickster might have wizard levels, or sorcerer levels, or bard levels, etc… So maybe I’m just out of the loop here - are archetypes class specific or they actually the PF2 class-agnostic viable replacement for prestige and I really should give PF2 a look?

          KichaeK Offline
          KichaeK Offline
          Kichae
          Forum Master
          wrote last edited by
          #17

          No, archetypes are not subclasses. They’re a whole system of character modifications, most of which can be taken by any character as long as they meet the prerequisites. They usually modify some base element of your class (eg the Flexible Spellcaster archetype changes how casters select their spells, use their spell slots, and how many spells they get). There are a subset of archetypes (Class Archetypes) which are locked to specific classes, and which more deeply alter the class’s base abilities. The changes can be quite significant. This is where the presteige classes are rearing their heads.

          1 Reply Last reply
          1
          • Z ziggurat@jlai.lu

            How easy it is for someone not knowing the game to build or even play a character? It’s great to have thousands of option, except when you join a game, don’t know yet all the option available and find up latter that your build doesn’t work. Is it a risk in pathfinder, or are the options robust enough to neither close path early nor have necessary combo?

            S This user is from outside of this forum
            S This user is from outside of this forum
            supernovastar@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            wrote last edited by
            #18

            Just play a fighter/rogue. Best way to learn pathfinder 2

            𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z 1 Reply Last reply
            3
            • Count Regal InkwellV Count Regal Inkwell

              I got a buddy that rolls randomly for all of those, only rerolling if they gets a combination they already used

              festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
              festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
              festnt@sh.itjust.works
              wrote last edited by
              #19

              the fun thing is, you could literally just do everything completely randomly and your build will still be good

              Count Regal InkwellV M 2 Replies Last reply
              6
              • sad_detective_man@leminal.spaceS sad_detective_man@leminal.space

                Pathfinder is for my soul. I live off that crunchy shit.

                however 8 different spells from 11 different books that all give +1 to profession (tailor) checks at night time may have been a poor design choice

                festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                festnt@sh.itjust.works
                wrote last edited by
                #20

                what spells are those

                sad_detective_man@leminal.spaceS 1 Reply Last reply
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                • 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢

                  I cannot recommend the Pathbuilder app enough. It narrows everything down to the available options based on what you’ve chosen so far, without taking the option of house ruling away from you.

                  festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                  festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                  festnt@sh.itjust.works
                  wrote last edited by
                  #21

                  *if you have donated/bought the premium version

                  𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z 1 Reply Last reply
                  1
                  • 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢

                    I cannot recommend the Pathbuilder app enough. It narrows everything down to the available options based on what you’ve chosen so far, without taking the option of house ruling away from you.

                    T This user is from outside of this forum
                    T This user is from outside of this forum
                    tyler@programming.dev
                    wrote last edited by
                    #22

                    Can you link the app? I cannot find it.

                    KichaeK 1 Reply Last reply
                    1
                    • Z ziggurat@jlai.lu

                      How easy it is for someone not knowing the game to build or even play a character? It’s great to have thousands of option, except when you join a game, don’t know yet all the option available and find up latter that your build doesn’t work. Is it a risk in pathfinder, or are the options robust enough to neither close path early nor have necessary combo?

                      festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                      festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                      festnt@sh.itjust.works
                      wrote last edited by
                      #23

                      you do not have to worry about anything other than what you’d like to play. you could do everything randomly and you’d still make a pretty good character

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • V vespair@lemmy.zip

                        Call me when they have prestige classes

                        festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                        festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                        festnt@sh.itjust.works
                        wrote last edited by
                        #24

                        what are prestige classes? (i only play pf2e)

                        V 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • Øπ3ŕO Øπ3ŕ

                          Paladium has entered the chat

                          festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                          festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                          festnt@sh.itjust.works
                          wrote last edited by
                          #25

                          what’s paladium? (i only play pf2e)

                          Øπ3ŕO 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • T tyler@programming.dev

                            Can you link the app? I cannot find it.

                            KichaeK Offline
                            KichaeK Offline
                            Kichae
                            Forum Master
                            wrote last edited by
                            #26

                            It’s not available yet on iOS (though an iOS port is in development). You can find it on the web at pathbuilder2e.com. Mobile and web apps don’t sync, though. The paid versions allow you to save characters to Google Drive, which you can use to sync them.

                            T 1 Reply Last reply
                            5
                            • festnt@sh.itjust.worksF festnt@sh.itjust.works

                              what are prestige classes? (i only play pf2e)

                              V This user is from outside of this forum
                              V This user is from outside of this forum
                              vespair@lemmy.zip
                              wrote last edited by
                              #27

                              Sounds like they’re actually similar to archetypes and I’m just dumb, tbh, but basically in 3.0+ D&D there were classes you could multiple class into without multiple penalty if your character met specific qualifications (different for each prestige class, usually ability score minimum and knowledge of a feat, spell, or spell level, but sometimes specific race or language or whatever). These classes were usually much more specialized and specific than the general core classes, but also gave your character great powers and flair in that specific niche. Or at least that’s the idea when they were well-implemented, which was not always the case, and prestige bloat is often cited as one of the worst parts of 3.0+ as nearly every single sourcebook would include at least a couple new ones (but I never saw this a problem, personally).

                              festnt@sh.itjust.worksF 1 Reply Last reply
                              1
                              • V vespair@lemmy.zip

                                I’m not either, I just don’t think prestige classes were the failure. Yes, later prestige were one way power creep and bloat happened, but they aren’t inherent to the state.

                                That being said, I must admit I’ve only dabbled in PF1 very briefly, so I guess I need to ask for clarity - are archetypes different than subclasses? It was my understand (again, from very far outside) that that was just what PF2 was calling subclasses, and if so, that’s a very different thing than a prestige class in my mind. A part of the appeal of prestige classes to me is worldbuilding groups built of a prestige classes made up of many different classes; I love that Arcane Trickster might have wizard levels, or sorcerer levels, or bard levels, etc… So maybe I’m just out of the loop here - are archetypes class specific or they actually the PF2 class-agnostic viable replacement for prestige and I really should give PF2 a look?

                                ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]P This user is from outside of this forum
                                ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]P This user is from outside of this forum
                                ProfessorOwl_PhD [any]
                                wrote last edited by professorowl_phd@hexbear.net
                                #28

                                PF1e archetypes are similar to subclasses - many functionally are - but are more about using one class as a base and replacing the parts you don’t want with parts of other classes you do want. Each archetype is linked to a specific class (which contributed to PF1e’s bloat), but you can stack any that don’t affect the same class features, and most classes have equivalent archetypes - for example, nearly all the non-companion classes have an archetype to replace something with an animal companion, most of the casters have a martial archetype and the martials a caster archetype etc. You can still multiclass on top and add archetypes to the new class(es), but they’re not quite class agnostic so I guess I can see why you wouldn’t like them.

                                PF2es archetypes/dedication feats are fully class agnostic replacements for PF1e archetypes/3.x prestige classes/multiclassing in general - you take them in place of class feats, and have to take a certain number from the same archetype before you can choose a new one. Medic is very popular because feats like battle medicine and ward medic lets any character replace a dedicated healer. Because of PF2es feat-centric design your initial choice of class gives you quite a loose framework of abilities to choose from, which you can then expand with dedications in more agnostic directions, like healing, duel wielding, archaeology, or becoming a lich.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                2
                                • V vespair@lemmy.zip

                                  Sounds like they’re actually similar to archetypes and I’m just dumb, tbh, but basically in 3.0+ D&D there were classes you could multiple class into without multiple penalty if your character met specific qualifications (different for each prestige class, usually ability score minimum and knowledge of a feat, spell, or spell level, but sometimes specific race or language or whatever). These classes were usually much more specialized and specific than the general core classes, but also gave your character great powers and flair in that specific niche. Or at least that’s the idea when they were well-implemented, which was not always the case, and prestige bloat is often cited as one of the worst parts of 3.0+ as nearly every single sourcebook would include at least a couple new ones (but I never saw this a problem, personally).

                                  festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                                  festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                                  festnt@sh.itjust.works
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #29

                                  yeah sounds a lot like pf2e archetypes.

                                  you take a feat that gives you stuff related to other classes (multiclass archetypes) or just more specialized stuff.
                                  some of them require certain things, like the wrestler dedication feat requires you to be at least trained in athletics, or like the new necrologist, that requires you to be a spellcaster that can cast summon undead

                                  and then there are class archetypes (not to be confused with multiclass archetypes), which are subclasses you take at level 1 and at 2nd level you have to take the archetype’s feat

                                  and like prestige classes, they seem to add a bunch of archetypes every new book they release, which is not at all an issue because that means MORE OPTIONS! and i love that

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  2
                                  • festnt@sh.itjust.worksF festnt@sh.itjust.works

                                    *if you have donated/bought the premium version

                                    𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                    𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                    𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢
                                    wrote last edited by zakobjoa@lemmy.world
                                    #30

                                    Okay, cloud saving, custom items and companions for a single payment of 4.50 EUR. But you can completely disregard the rules and freely give skills, spells and feats with the free version. The app is very well maintained, gets updates at least monthly. They were so fast with the implementation of the remaster. I’d love to gift the app to people in my group, who are struggling a bit more financially, but Google doesn’t have a functionality like that unfortunately.

                                    festnt@sh.itjust.worksF 1 Reply Last reply
                                    3
                                    • S supernovastar@lemmy.blahaj.zone

                                      Just play a fighter/rogue. Best way to learn pathfinder 2

                                      𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                      𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z This user is from outside of this forum
                                      𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #31

                                      I have a new player in my group who plays a rogue and tbh she still struggles a lot with all the different ways to get enemies off-guard. But it’s her first TTRPG overall and Pathfinder is not the best choice for that. Unfortunately for her no one in the group wanted to go back to Hasbro.

                                      KichaeK 1 Reply Last reply
                                      1
                                      • 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢

                                        Okay, cloud saving, custom items and companions for a single payment of 4.50 EUR. But you can completely disregard the rules and freely give skills, spells and feats with the free version. The app is very well maintained, gets updates at least monthly. They were so fast with the implementation of the remaster. I’d love to gift the app to people in my group, who are struggling a bit more financially, but Google doesn’t have a functionality like that unfortunately.

                                        festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                                        festnt@sh.itjust.worksF This user is from outside of this forum
                                        festnt@sh.itjust.works
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #32

                                        only 4.5 EUR… it’s 20.99 BRL

                                        i hate money 😄 (or maybe i just hate inflation)

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        2
                                        • 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢Z 𝔄 𝔰𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔢𝔫𝔱 𝔭𝔦𝔢𝔠𝔢 𝔬𝔣 𝔠𝔥𝔢𝔢𝔰𝔢

                                          I have a new player in my group who plays a rogue and tbh she still struggles a lot with all the different ways to get enemies off-guard. But it’s her first TTRPG overall and Pathfinder is not the best choice for that. Unfortunately for her no one in the group wanted to go back to Hasbro.

                                          KichaeK Offline
                                          KichaeK Offline
                                          Kichae
                                          Forum Master
                                          wrote last edited by Kichae
                                          #33

                                          Try explaining things to her in more intuitive terms. She gets to do more damage when her opponent has significant trouble defending themselves. That happens when they have to split their attention across a wide distance (flanked), when they’re on the ground (prone), when they can’t see where they’re being attacked from (hidden), or when you fake them out (feint).

                                          Old hats tend to boil away the actual roleplay from combat, but the rules usually directly support a roleplay-based view of battle. Presenting the game this way had my then-9-year-old picking the game up really quickly.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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