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Wandering Adventure Party

  • The Wandering Adventure Party blog.

    Most who wander are lost.

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    KichaeK
    One of my favourite things about Pathfinder 2e is its Alternative Initiative Skills rule. It’s a simple and intuitive guideline for making character skills more valuable and pulling in “exploration”/non-combat mode activities and behaviours into combat initialization. For those who haven’t played the game before, while there’s a default initiative roll that everyone can use at the start of combat based off of your Perception modifier, you can also use whatever skill modifier maps onto the task you were doing at the time of initiative if you, or your GM, chooses. So, if you’re a Barbarian busting down a door, you can roll Athlethics for initiative, or if you’re a Cleric pre-casting Shield, you can roll Religion. This is all pretty simple, straight-forward, and elegant until you get to someone who is sneaking at initiative, because Avoid Notice – PF2’s formal name for the ‘sneaking around’ Action in exploration mode – interacts with everyone else’s Perception DC (PF2’s proxy for Passive Perception). Checks, attacks, and skill rolls in PF2 are always done against a DC; the system never does contested rolls for these. This means trying to avoid being detected by someone is always done by rolling a Stealth check against the Perception DCs of anyone around who might be able to reasonably notice them. So, if you roll Stealth for initiative, and you beat all of the enemies’ Perception DCs, none of them should notice you. None of them should know you exist. But initiative is a contested roll. It’s the only contested roll in the game, RAW. And, as mentioned, the default ability for rolling initiative in PF2 is Perception. Why? Because it’s supposed to represent you noticing that the other creatures in the room are about to throw hands. And now we have a Perception roll contesting a Stealth roll. This is where things fall apart. This opens the door to the hiding character beating their opponent’s Perception DC – and so, being unnoticed – while the opponent rolls higher on initiative. What are you supposed to do in this case, where the hider has successfully hidden, but the perceiver succeeds in noticing? Much to my perpetual bemusement and frustration, GM Core suggests that the opponent just… knows someone is out there. GM Core pg. 25: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. So, why does it do this? Well, biggest reason is probably that PF2 doesn’t have surprise rounds. Instead, it uses its regular stealth system to handle this. The in-text reason is subtle, and likely won’t be picked up by someone who isn’t familiar with the game’s stealth rules. Pathfinder 2e has five different awareness/perception states for creatures: Noticed, Concealed, Hidden, Undetected, and Unnoticed. These states are relative to the viewer+viewed pair. The first three are fairly straight forward and intuitive: Noticed creatures are in plain sight, unobscured, and viewed by the viewer; Concealed creatures are seen, and their location is known, but there is something obscuring the viewer’s view, making their position seem a little “fuzzy”; and Hidden creatures are not seen by the viewer, but their location is known. The Undetected and Unnoticed states, though, are often a bit of a stumbling block, because, by name, they appear to be synonymous. They’re actually significantly different, though. An Undetected creature is one that the viewer knows to exist, but that they do not know the location of, while an Unnoticed creature is one that they don’t know exists at all. If you review the quoted block of text above, you’ll probably pick up on the fact that the authors are very careful to say that the character that succeeds on their Stealth roll is undetected, is careful about the use of unnoticed, and goes out of their way to avoid other synonyms. Beating the enemy’s Perception DC on initiative rolls makes you Undetected, and not Unnoticed. But that’s not how people use it anywhere else in the game. Outside of initiative, if you roll Stealth and beat the other creature’s Perception DC, you’re usually going to be Unnoticed. If you beat the guard’s Perception DC, you’re going to be allowed to sneak on by without them paying you any attention. So, why does it work this way with initiative? The books don’t say definitively, but I’m pretty sure it’s because if you tell your players to roll initiative when you haven’t told them that there’s anything around, they will assume there’s something hiding in the shadows. Most GMs don’t just randomly throw players into initiative, and most players don’t want to be thrown into initiative with no payoff. Hidden enemies are Undetected by default, because players can’t ignore the metacontext of the encounter (nor should they). But GM Core presents this as a symmetrical situation, and it shouldn’t be. The stealth initiative rules are set up this way for good meta reasons, but the GM should be working to a higher standard vis-a-vis metagaming. There are no in-fiction reasons why these Stealth rolls should have different outcomes from any others. So, how should this play out? First of all, in the majority of cases, at least one player is going to either fail their Stealth roll and be perceived, or they’re going to opt to roll with some other skill or ability, so it’ll be a moot case. The NPCs will have a reason to investigate the shadows. But if the whole party rolls Stealth for initiative, and the whole party beats the first NPC’s Perception DC, but fails to beat their initiative roll, I think that NPC should pass on its turn. I will generally roleplay whatever it is that they were doing for 3 Actions, and then pass the baton off to the next character. Eventually, we’ll either get to an NPC whose Perception DC was high enough to actually notice that something’s afoot, or we’ll reach a PC, who will probably make sure all of the NPCs are in the know. This provides opportunities for the players to passively observe their targets for a moment without being in the reactive state of “Oh Shit, It’s My Turn”, and also rewards players with a little extra reward for having tried something as a unit and unanimously succeeding. Plus, it side-steps the invalidating and disappointing feeling of having a ‘win’ stolen away, which is what succeeding on your Stealth roll but having your enemy know you’re there anyway does.

  • Welcome to the party! Introduce yourself to the community and familiarize yourself with the house rules.

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    2 Posts
    KichaeK
    0. Rules As Intended These rules exist to maintain the forum as a friendly, fun, and inclusive space. The intent and spirit of these rules are far, far more important than the letter. Engage in good faith; don’t be rules lawyers. 1. Be Civil Treat other adventurers with a basic level of respect. Do not pick on, insult, harass, grief, dox, or threaten other community members, or users of other websites using this forum (via the World page). We’re all just folk here. None of us are on our best behaviour all of the time, nor should we expect anyone to be. But if we all work to avoid toxicity, and to counter it when we find it coming from others, we can create a healthy space for us all. 2. No Bigotry Yes, this is covered under Rule 1, but let’s double down on this. Discriminatory or inflammatory comments related to peoples age, sex/gender, race/ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexuality, disabilities, or other identifying properties will not be tolerated. 3. No Explicitly Adult Content Try to keep thins PG-13. The hobby is enjoyed by adventurers of all ages, and we want to create an environment that is as welcoming as possible to everybody. The forum is accessible via other websites. If you want to engage in discussions that are not appropriate for minors while also engaging respectfully with other members of the party, please consider engaging remotely, via federated websites running services like Mastodon, Misskey, Lemmy, Friendica, or Hubzilla. 4. No Illegal Content or Activity Posting content that violates copyrights, or breaks the criminal codes of the United States or Canada, or which could be considered criminal solicitation endangers the community and is expressly forbidden. The forum is accessible from other websites that may be hosted in more liberal jurisdictions than WAP is, if you want to have such discussions. 5. No Spam or Excessive Self-Promotion Have you produced some kind of creative work, or offer some kind of service, that is relevant to community members? Then we’re interested in hearing about it! But please show some restraint when sharing. Make sure you’re posting in the appropriate forum, and don’t be overzealous with your posting frequency. 6. Follow Good Netiquette The basic rules of behaviour on the Internet have been handed down from medium to medium, forum to forum, user to user for actual, literal generations now. Adventurers are expected to have a basic understanding of The Deep Magic and adhere to proper netiquette and forum hygiene.

  • A forum where Adventurers can discuss learning, running, and playing Pathfinder Second Edition.

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    411 Posts
    KichaeK
    @pteryx@dice.camp This is one of the reasons I don’t like discussing games with people who primarily engage in organized play. In very real terms, we’re using the game system very differently, but they usually feel like they’re playing the one-true-way, and refuse to acknowledge that game systems are toolkits. It’s remarkably frustrating and alienating.

  • A space to engage with other Adventurers in character.

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  • A space for discussing topics of general interest with fellow Adventurers.

    29 619
    29 Topics
    619 Posts
    KichaeK
    --- title: "[Creature Name]" Description: "[Creature Description]" Level: "[Level]" Perception: "[Mod] ([Senses])" Languages: "[Languages]" Skills: "[Skill +Mod], [Skill +Mod]" Items: "[Items carried]" Origin: "[Creature's town, biome, or plane of origin]" Motivation: "[Creature Motivations]" Personality: "[Creature Personality]" Notes: "[Flavor or behavior notes]" Tactics: "[Tactical combat or encounter notes]" tags: [Add, Your, Tags] --- <div style="max-width: 700px; margin: 20px auto; padding: 25px; background: radial-gradient(circle at center, #3d240a 0%, #1a0f02 100%); border: 3px solid #ffd700; outline: 1px solid #ffd700; outline-offset: 2px; border-radius: 15px; box-shadow: 0 0 20px rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.2), inset 0 0 50px rgba(0,0,0,0.5); font-family: 'Georgia', serif; color: #fff;"> <!-- HEADER --> <div style="display: flex; justify-content: space-between; align-items: center; border-bottom: 2px solid #ffd700; padding-bottom: 10px; margin-bottom: 15px;"> <div> <h2 style="margin: 0; color: #ffd700; text-transform: uppercase; letter-spacing: 4px; font-size: 30px; text-shadow: 0 0 10px rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.5);"> <!-- ================================================================ --> [CREATURE NAME] <!-- ================================================================ --> </h2> <span style="color: #ffaa00; font-variant: small-caps; font-weight: bold; font-size: 16px; letter-spacing: 1px;"> <!-- ================================================================ --> [Title/Epithet] <!-- ================================================================ --> </span> </div> <div style="background: linear-gradient(to bottom, #ffd700, #b8860b); color: #1a0f02; padding: 8px 18px; border-radius: 50% 50% 5px 5px; font-weight: bold; font-size: 22px; border: 1px solid #fff;"> <!-- ================================================================ --> [LVL] <!-- ================================================================ --> </div> </div> <!-- TRAITS --> <div style="display: flex; gap: 8px; margin-bottom: 15px; flex-wrap: wrap;"> <span style="border: 1px solid #ffd700; color: #ffd700; background: rgba(0,0,0,0.4); padding: 3px 12px; border-radius: 4px; font-size: 11px; text-transform: uppercase; font-weight: bold;"> [ALIGNMENT] </span> <span style="border: 1px solid #ffd700; color: #ffd700; background: rgba(0,0,0,0.4); padding: 3px 12px; border-radius: 4px; font-size: 11px; text-transform: uppercase; font-weight: bold;"> [SIZE] </span> <span style="border: 1px solid #ffd700; color: #1a0f02; background: #ffd700; padding: 3px 12px; border-radius: 4px; font-size: 11px; text-transform: uppercase; font-weight: bold; box-shadow: 0 0 8px #ffd700;"> [TRAIT 1] </span> <span style="border: 1px solid #ffd700; color: #1a0f02; background: #ffd700; padding: 3px 12px; border-radius: 4px; font-size: 11px; text-transform: uppercase; font-weight: bold; box-shadow: 0 0 8px #ffd700;"> [TRAIT 2] </span> </div> <!-- BIO/FLAVOR BLOCK --> <div style="background: rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.05); padding: 15px; border-radius: 10px; margin-bottom: 15px; border: 1px solid rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.2);"> <p style="margin: 0 0 5px 0; font-size: 14px; color: #eee;"> <b style="color: #ffd700;">Languages:</b> [LANGUAGES] </p> <p style="margin: 0 0 5px 0; font-size: 14px; color: #eee;"> <b style="color: #ffd700;">Items:</b> [ITEMS] </p> <p style="margin: 0; font-size: 14px; color: #ccc;"> <b style="color: #ffd700;">Notes:</b> [FLAVOR_NOTES] </p> </div> <!-- STAT MODS --> <div style="display: flex; justify-content: space-between; padding: 8px; background: rgba(0,0,0,0.3); border-radius: 5px; margin-bottom: 15px; font-size: 14px; border: 1px solid #444;"> <span>STR <b>+[STR_MOD]</b></span> <span>DEX <b>+[DEX_MOD]</b></span> <span>CON <b>+[CON_MOD]</b></span> <span>INT <b>+[INT_MOD]</b></span> <span>WIS <b>+[WIS_MOD]</b></span> <span>CHA <b>+[CHA_MOD]</b></span> </div> <!-- SKILLS --> <div style="background: rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.08); padding: 10px; border-radius: 8px; border: 1px dashed rgba(255,215,0,0.4); margin-bottom: 20px;"> <div style="font-size: 10px; text-transform: uppercase; color: #ffd700; margin-bottom: 4px;">Skills</div> <div style="font-size: 14px;"> [SKILLS_LIST] </div> </div> <!-- SENSES & SPEED --> <div style="display: grid; grid-template-columns: 1fr 1fr; gap: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px;"> <div style="background: rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.15); padding: 8px; border-radius: 8px; border: 1px solid #ffd700;"> <div style="font-size: 10px; text-transform: uppercase; color: #ffd700; margin-bottom: 2px;">Perception</div> <div style="font-size: 20px; font-weight: bold; text-align: center;"> +[PERCEPTION_MOD] <span style="font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; color: #ccc;"><br> ([SENSES]) </span> </div> </div> <div style="background: rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.15); padding: 8px; border-radius: 8px; border: 1px solid #ffd700;"> <div style="font-size: 10px; text-transform: uppercase; color: #ffd700; margin-bottom: 2px;">Speed</div> <div style="font-size: 20px; font-weight: bold; text-align: center;"> [SPEED] ft. </div> </div> </div> <!-- VITALS --> <div style="display: flex; gap: 15px; margin-bottom: 10px;"> <div style="flex: 1; border-top: 3px solid #ffd700; background: rgba(255,255,255,0.05); padding: 8px; text-align: center;"> <div style="font-size: 10px; text-transform: uppercase; color: #ffd700;">AC</div> <div style="font-size: 22px; font-weight: bold;"> [AC_VAL] </div> </div> <div style="flex: 1; border-top: 3px solid #ff4444; background: rgba(255,255,255,0.05); padding: 8px; text-align: center;"> <div style="font-size: 10px; text-transform: uppercase; color: #ff4444;">HP</div> <div style="font-size: 22px; font-weight: bold;"> [HP_VAL] </div> </div> </div> <!-- SAVES --> <div style="display: grid; grid-template-columns: repeat(3, 1fr); gap: 10px; margin-bottom: 20px;"> <div style="text-align: center; border-bottom: 1px solid #ffd700; background: rgba(255,255,255,0.05); padding: 5px; border-radius: 4px;"> <b>Fort</b><i> +[FORT_MOD] </i> </div> <div style="text-align: center; border-bottom: 1px solid #ffd700; background: rgba(255,255,255,0.05); padding: 5px; border-radius: 4px;"> <b>Ref</b><i> +[REF_MOD] </i> </div> <div style="text-align: center; border-bottom: 1px solid #ffd700; background: rgba(255,255,255,0.05); padding: 5px; border-radius: 4px;"> <b>Will</b><i> +[WILL_MOD] </i> </div> </div> <div style="font-size: 14px; color: #ffaa00; margin-bottom: 15px; font-style: italic;"> [Immunities/Resistances/Weaknesses] </div> <!-- DEFENSIVE ABILITIES --> <div style="font-size: 18px; line-height: 1.6; margin-top: 15px;"> <span style="color: #ffd700; font-weight: bold;"> <b>[Ability Name] </b> <span style="background: #ffd700; color: #1a0f02; margin-right: 5px; padding: 0 4px; border-radius: 3px; font-size: 12px;"> [2A] </span></span> ([Traits]) <b>Effect</b> <i>[Description]</i>. </div> <!-- DEFENSIVE REACTIONS --> <div style="border: 2px solid #ffd700; background: rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.1); padding: 12px; border-radius: 10px; margin-top: 15px; font-size: 18px;"> <span style="color: #ffd700; font-weight: bold;">Reaction <span style="background: #ffd700; color: #1a0f02; padding: 0 5px; border-radius: 3px; font-size: 14px;">[R]</span></span> <b>[Reaction Name]</b> <b>Trigger</b> <i>[Condition]</i>; <b>Effect</b> <i>[Description].</i> </div> <!-- OFFENSE SECTION --> <h4 style="color: #ffd700; border-bottom: 1px solid #ffd700; text-transform: uppercase; letter-spacing: 2px; margin: 25px 0 10px 0;">Offense</h4> <div style="font-size: 18px; line-height: 1.6;"> <!-- Melee Strike --> <div style="margin-bottom: 8px;"> <span style="color: #ffd700; font-weight: bold;"> Melee <span style="background: #ffd700; color: #1a0f02; margin-right: 5px; padding: 0 5px; border-radius: 3px; font-size: 14px;"> [1A] </span></span> <b>[Strike Name]</b> <i>+[MOD] / +[MOD-MAP] / +[MOD-2*MAP]</i> ([Traits]), <b>Damage</b> <i>[Dice] [Type]</i> </div> <!-- Ranged Strike --> <div style="margin-bottom: 8px;"> <span style="color: #ffd700; font-weight: bold;"> Ranged <span style="background: #ffd700; color: #1a0f02; margin-right: 5px; padding: 0 5px; border-radius: 3px; font-size: 14px;"> [1A] </span></span> <b>[Strike Name]</b> <i>+[MOD] / +[MOD-MAP] / +[MOD-2*MAP]</i> ([Traits]), <b>Damage</b> <i>[Dice] [Type]</i> </div> </div> <!-- OFFENSIVE SPECIALS --> <div style="font-size: 18px; line-height: 1.6; margin-top: 15px;"> <span style="color: #ffd700; font-weight: bold;"> [Ability Name] <span style="background: #ffd700; color: #1a0f02; margin-right: 5px; padding: 0 5px; border-radius: 3px; font-size: 12px;"> [2A] </span></span> ([Traits]) <b>Effect</b> <i>[Description]</i>. </div> <!-- SPELLS & MAGIC --> <div style="border-top: 1px dashed rgba(255,215,0,0.3); margin-top: 20px; padding-top: 10px;"> <h4 style="color: #ffd700; border-bottom: 1px solid #ffd700; text-transform: uppercase; letter-spacing: 2px; margin: 10px 0 15px 0;">Spells & Magic</h4> <!-- Innate/Class Spell Block --> <div style="background: rgba(255, 215, 0, 0.15); margin-top: 8px; padding: 10px; border-radius: 8px; border: 1px solid #ffd700;"> <div style="font-size: 14px; text-transform: uppercase; color: #ffd700; margin-bottom: 2px;"> <b>[Source] Spells</b> DC <i>[DC]</i>, Attack <i>+[MOD]</i> </div> <div style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: bold;"> <p style="margin: 0; padding-left: 10px; color: #c0c0c0;"> <b>Cantrips:</b> [Spell], [Spell]<br> <b>[RANK] Rank:</b> [Spell], [Spell] </p> </div> </div> <!-- Focus Spell Block --> <div style="background: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2); margin-top: 8px; padding: 10px; border-radius: 8px; border: 1px solid #ffd700;"> <div style="font-size: 14px; text-transform: uppercase; color: #ffd700; margin-bottom: 2px;"> <b>Focus Spells</b> DC <i>[DC]</i>, Attack <i>+[MOD]</i>, <i>[NUM_FPs]</i> FP </div> <div style="font-size: 16px; font-weight: bold;"> <p style="margin: 0; padding-left: 10px; color: #c0c0c0;"> <b>Cantrips:</b> [Spell]<br> <b>[RANK] Rank:</b> [Spell] </p> </div> </div> </div> </div>

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Welcome to the Wandering Adventure Party, a Pathfinder 2nd Edition community with a focus on casual tables, character/fiction driven play, and roleplaying. Pull up a set at the table, and introduce yourself!

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