@MicroSFF

...okay, I have to admit that I took an instant dislike to the unnamed creators for using silly dragon/wyvern definitions.

@juergen_hubert @MicroSFF So what are non silly definitions ?

@juergen_hubert @MicroSFF
But... Tradition! And Heraldry!

This is a hill I choose to die upon! I shall defend the distinction between Dragons, Wyverns, and Wyrms!

@Sobex @MicroSFF

A dragon can be anything that people called a dragon, no matter what its number or arrangement of limbs might be.

And if that includes a flying, fiery poodle, then we should not be judgemental and dismiss it.

https://wiki.sunkencastles.com/wiki/The_Wild_Hunt_of_the_Untersberg

@rdm @juergen_hubert @MicroSFF and what do we call the grouping of those? Just "big reptile"?
And yes heraldic, but only in a few countries.
I would say, the distinction is made o so popular by DnD adopting it.
For me (german) they are all dragons. No matter how many legs, feathered wings or no wings at all.

@rdm @MicroSFF

What you call "a hill to die on", I call "bloody British Cultural Imperialism"!

@Garonenur @rdm @MicroSFF

My favorite are the chimney dragons.

https://wiki.sunkencastles.com/wiki/The_Fiery_Dragon_in_Riedheim
https://wiki.sunkencastles.com/wiki/Glowtail_in_Velstove

@juergen_hubert I will just make a note here to say that:
A) I am Swedish, not British,
B) The distinction exists in British English, which is the language I write in (in Swedish they are all "drake", like in German),
C) I learned the distinction while reading various legends of King Arthur and learning about heraldry,

You are of course entitled to dislike the story, but I don't think it's evidence I'm working to further British imperialism.

@rdm

@MicroSFF @rdm

But see? That's how Cultural Imperialism works! The Imperialists get you to accept _their_ definitions and nomenclature as the only correct one! And don't get me started about "fairies!"

More seriously, I actually do like the story - I just think the unnamed creators are twits for using that narrow definition of "dragon". Which actually makes the story more believable, since that's _exactly_ the kind of pedantic nerd arguments that people from science and engineering backgrounds will engage in.(*) So please don't read my initial comment as a criticism of the story itself - it wasn't intended that way.

(*) As a folklorist with a STEM background, I am by no means excluding myself - and as it happens, "overly narrow definitions of folkloric phenomena" happens to be one of my pet peeves.

@juergen_hubert @rdm I see your point, but I think it is misdirected. As a folklorist, wouldn't you prefer to talk about the Nix (Näcken in Swedish) rather than the more generic "merman" or even "river spirit"?

While the Inuit's hundred words for snow is a myth, languages tend to develop the vocabularies they need. Maybe Britain suffered more widespread dragon infestation, necessitating the distinctions?

Were I writing in another language, I would have made that characterisation differently.

@MicroSFF @rdm

That depends entirely on what terms the oral folk storytellers used! I'd use "Nix"/"Näcken" whenever that's what the locals used, and a more generic "river spirit" if there are multiple names for similar entities.

To use a German example, I use the term "night hags" when talking about sleep paralysis demons. The German texts use all sorts of different regional names, such as "Trude/Drude", "Mahr/Nachtmahr", "Walrider", "Incubus", "Alp", and so forth, but these all fall into the same overall behavioral patterns, so "night hags" is okay as an overall group name.

And I see "dragon" as a group name as well. "Lindwurm", "Drak", and so forth might be more specialized names for the German "Drache", but these terms, too, mean different things to different people - and often the very same creature is called a "Drache" in a different story anyway.

As far as I can tell (though I don't know as much about British folklore), the " #dragon "/" #wyvern " distinction in the UK arose from heraldry, _not_ folklore. Heraldry experts needed clear definitions so that they could describe or draw heraldic symbols - but are those same definitions actually used within folk tales? Did the oral folk storytellers really distinguish between four-limbed wyverns and six-limbed dragons?

If they were _anything_ like their German counterparts, they would have used both names and appearances as narrative tropes that could be used or discarded as needed. And when it comes to #folklore , I will take _their_ word above the word of non-folk storytellers.

I hope I am making sense here.