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  • KichaeK

    One of my favourite things about Pathfinder 2e is its Alternative Initiative Skills rule. It’s a simple and intuitive guideline for making character skills more valuable and pulling in “exploration”/non-combat mode activities and behaviours into combat initialization.

    For those who haven’t played the game before, while there’s a default initiative roll that everyone can use at the start of combat based off of your Perception modifier, you can also use whatever skill modifier maps onto the task you were doing at the time of initiative if you, or your GM, chooses. So, if you’re a Barbarian busting down a door, you can roll Athlethics for initiative, or if you’re a Cleric pre-casting Shield, you can roll Religion.

    This is all pretty simple, straight-forward, and elegant until you get to someone who is sneaking at initiative, because Avoid Notice – PF2’s formal name for the ‘sneaking around’ Action in exploration mode – interacts with everyone else’s Perception DC (PF2’s proxy for Passive Perception). Checks, attacks, and skill rolls in PF2 are always done against a DC; the system never does contested rolls for these. This means trying to avoid being detected by someone is always done by rolling a Stealth check against the Perception DCs of anyone around who might be able to reasonably notice them. So, if you roll Stealth for initiative, and you beat all of the enemies’ Perception DCs, none of them should notice you. None of them should know you exist.

    But initiative is a contested roll. It’s the only contested roll in the game, RAW. And, as mentioned, the default ability for rolling initiative in PF2 is Perception. Why? Because it’s supposed to represent you noticing that the other creatures in the room are about to throw hands. And now we have a Perception roll contesting a Stealth roll.

    This is where things fall apart. This opens the door to the hiding character beating their opponent’s Perception DC – and so, being unnoticed – while the opponent rolls higher on initiative. What are you supposed to do in this case, where the hider has successfully hidden, but the perceiver succeeds in noticing?

    Much to my perpetual bemusement and frustration, GM Core suggests that the opponent just… knows someone is out there.


    GM Core pg. 25: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight.


    So, why does it do this?

    Well, biggest reason is probably that PF2 doesn’t have surprise rounds. Instead, it uses its regular stealth system to handle this.

    The in-text reason is subtle, and likely won’t be picked up by someone who isn’t familiar with the game’s stealth rules. Pathfinder 2e has five different awareness/perception states for creatures: Noticed, Concealed, Hidden, Undetected, and Unnoticed. These states are relative to the viewer+viewed pair. The first three are fairly straight forward and intuitive: Noticed creatures are in plain sight, unobscured, and viewed by the viewer; Concealed creatures are seen, and their location is known, but there is something obscuring the viewer’s view, making their position seem a little “fuzzy”; and Hidden creatures are not seen by the viewer, but their location is known. The Undetected and Unnoticed states, though, are often a bit of a stumbling block, because, by name, they appear to be synonymous. They’re actually significantly different, though. An Undetected creature is one that the viewer knows to exist, but that they do not know the location of, while an Unnoticed creature is one that they don’t know exists at all.

    If you review the quoted block of text above, you’ll probably pick up on the fact that the authors are very careful to say that the character that succeeds on their Stealth roll is undetected, is careful about the use of unnoticed, and goes out of their way to avoid other synonyms. Beating the enemy’s Perception DC on initiative rolls makes you Undetected, and not Unnoticed.

    But that’s not how people use it anywhere else in the game. Outside of initiative, if you roll Stealth and beat the other creature’s Perception DC, you’re usually going to be Unnoticed. If you beat the guard’s Perception DC, you’re going to be allowed to sneak on by without them paying you any attention.

    So, why does it work this way with initiative? The books don’t say definitively, but I’m pretty sure it’s because if you tell your players to roll initiative when you haven’t told them that there’s anything around, they will assume there’s something hiding in the shadows. Most GMs don’t just randomly throw players into initiative, and most players don’t want to be thrown into initiative with no payoff. Hidden enemies are Undetected by default, because players can’t ignore the metacontext of the encounter (nor should they).

    But GM Core presents this as a symmetrical situation, and it shouldn’t be. The stealth initiative rules are set up this way for good meta reasons, but the GM should be working to a higher standard vis-a-vis metagaming. There are no in-fiction reasons why these Stealth rolls should have different outcomes from any others.

    So, how should this play out?

    First of all, in the majority of cases, at least one player is going to either fail their Stealth roll and be perceived, or they’re going to opt to roll with some other skill or ability, so it’ll be a moot case. The NPCs will have a reason to investigate the shadows. But if the whole party rolls Stealth for initiative, and the whole party beats the first NPC’s Perception DC, but fails to beat their initiative roll, I think that NPC should pass on its turn. I will generally roleplay whatever it is that they were doing for 3 Actions, and then pass the baton off to the next character. Eventually, we’ll either get to an NPC whose Perception DC was high enough to actually notice that something’s afoot, or we’ll reach a PC, who will probably make sure all of the NPCs are in the know.

    This provides opportunities for the players to passively observe their targets for a moment without being in the reactive state of “Oh Shit, It’s My Turn”, and also rewards players with a little extra reward for having tried something as a unit and unanimously succeeding. Plus, it side-steps the invalidating and disappointing feeling of having a ‘win’ stolen away, which is what succeeding on your Stealth roll but having your enemy know you’re there anyway does.


    One of my favourite things about Pathfinder 2e is its Alternative Initiative Skills rule. It’s a simple and intuitive guideline for making character skills more valuable and pulling in “exploration”/non-combat mode activities and behaviours into combat initialization. For those who haven’t played the game before, while there’s a default initiative roll that everyone can use at the start of combat based off of your Perception modifier, you can also use whatever skill modifier maps onto the task you were doing at the time of initiative if you, or your GM, chooses. So, if you’re a Barbarian busting down a door, you can roll Athlethics for initiative, or if you’re a Cleric pre-casting Shield, you can roll Religion. This is all pretty simple, straight-forward, and elegant until you get to someone who is sneaking at initiative, because Avoid Notice – PF2’s formal name for the ‘sneaking around’ Action in exploration mode – interacts with everyone else’s Perception DC (PF2’s proxy for Passive Perception). Checks, attacks, and skill rolls in PF2 are always done against a DC; the system never does contested rolls for these. This means trying to avoid being detected by someone is always done by rolling a Stealth check against the Perception DCs of anyone around who might be able to reasonably notice them. So, if you roll Stealth for initiative, and you beat all of the enemies’ Perception DCs, none of them should notice you. None of them should know you exist. But initiative is a contested roll. It’s the only contested roll in the game, RAW. And, as mentioned, the default ability for rolling initiative in PF2 is Perception. Why? Because it’s supposed to represent you noticing that the other creatures in the room are about to throw hands. And now we have a Perception roll contesting a Stealth roll. This is where things fall apart. This opens the door to the hiding character beating their opponent’s Perception DC – and so, being unnoticed – while the opponent rolls higher on initiative. What are you supposed to do in this case, where the hider has successfully hidden, but the perceiver succeeds in noticing? Much to my perpetual bemusement and frustration, GM Core suggests that the opponent just… knows someone is out there. GM Core pg. 25: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They’re undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. So, why does it do this? Well, biggest reason is probably that PF2 doesn’t have surprise rounds. Instead, it uses its regular stealth system to handle this. The in-text reason is subtle, and likely won’t be picked up by someone who isn’t familiar with the game’s stealth rules. Pathfinder 2e has five different awareness/perception states for creatures: Noticed, Concealed, Hidden, Undetected, and Unnoticed. These states are relative to the viewer+viewed pair. The first three are fairly straight forward and intuitive: Noticed creatures are in plain sight, unobscured, and viewed by the viewer; Concealed creatures are seen, and their location is known, but there is something obscuring the viewer’s view, making their position seem a little “fuzzy”; and Hidden creatures are not seen by the viewer, but their location is known. The Undetected and Unnoticed states, though, are often a bit of a stumbling block, because, by name, they appear to be synonymous. They’re actually significantly different, though. An Undetected creature is one that the viewer knows to exist, but that they do not know the location of, while an Unnoticed creature is one that they don’t know exists at all. If you review the quoted block of text above, you’ll probably pick up on the fact that the authors are very careful to say that the character that succeeds on their Stealth roll is undetected, is careful about the use of unnoticed, and goes out of their way to avoid other synonyms. Beating the enemy’s Perception DC on initiative rolls makes you Undetected, and not Unnoticed. But that’s not how people use it anywhere else in the game. Outside of initiative, if you roll Stealth and beat the other creature’s Perception DC, you’re usually going to be Unnoticed. If you beat the guard’s Perception DC, you’re going to be allowed to sneak on by without them paying you any attention. So, why does it work this way with initiative? The books don’t say definitively, but I’m pretty sure it’s because if you tell your players to roll initiative when you haven’t told them that there’s anything around, they will assume there’s something hiding in the shadows. Most GMs don’t just randomly throw players into initiative, and most players don’t want to be thrown into initiative with no payoff. Hidden enemies are Undetected by default, because players can’t ignore the metacontext of the encounter (nor should they). But GM Core presents this as a symmetrical situation, and it shouldn’t be. The stealth initiative rules are set up this way for good meta reasons, but the GM should be working to a higher standard vis-a-vis metagaming. There are no in-fiction reasons why these Stealth rolls should have different outcomes from any others. So, how should this play out? First of all, in the majority of cases, at least one player is going to either fail their Stealth roll and be perceived, or they’re going to opt to roll with some other skill or ability, so it’ll be a moot case. The NPCs will have a reason to investigate the shadows. But if the whole party rolls Stealth for initiative, and the whole party beats the first NPC’s Perception DC, but fails to beat their initiative roll, I think that NPC should pass on its turn. I will generally roleplay whatever it is that they were doing for 3 Actions, and then pass the baton off to the next character. Eventually, we’ll either get to an NPC whose Perception DC was high enough to actually notice that something’s afoot, or we’ll reach a PC, who will probably make sure all of the NPCs are in the know. This provides opportunities for the players to passively observe their targets for a moment without being in the reactive state of “Oh Shit, It’s My Turn”, and also rewards players with a little extra reward for having tried something as a unit and unanimously succeeding. Plus, it side-steps the invalidating and disappointing feeling of having a ‘win’ stolen away, which is what succeeding on your Stealth roll but having your enemy know you’re there anyway does.
  • KichaeK

    Over on Reddit the other day, u/MeanMeanFun asked the PF2 subreddit what they can do about a player at their table who isn’t as engaged with the game as the rest of the players. This player is newer to the game than the rest of the table, but has been playing for a year now and still struggles to remember things like what all of their items do, and isn’t engaging in optimal tactical play.

    Some form of this discussion comes up somewhat frequently, and the responses people get are often jarring to me. Consider these replies:


    If they cannot grasp the basics after 12+ months it is possible that pf2e isn’t their game.


    Some people’s brains aren’t wired for this game. At this point I think you have to come to terms with the fact that they’re not gonna get any better, and then start thinking and discussing with your other players how to go forward.


    There’s almost a kind of literacy that ttrpgs require in general and PF demands a lot of in particular. Even if someone is really committed to memorizing stuff, there’s a bringing-it-all-togetherness that’s a unique skill that’s still required to actually apply that knowledge.

    All of which is to say that it’s possible this isn’t really their fault while this game still not really being for them. If someone just doesn’t get basketball and is constantly double dribbling, carrying, making fouls, and shooting in the wrong basket despite a lot of practice, they’re probably not going to be very welcome in the local pickup game, even if they practice a lot and try really hard.


    Responses like this are common on any post where someone is either struggling to internalize all of the rules of the game, or doesn’t want to engaged deeply and directly with the game’s engine. There’s a chauvinism on display here which often goes unacknowledged and unchallenged, and not only is it deeply unhelpful to people who are specifically looking for help, but it also creates a sense that the game itself, and the community that surrounds it, is actually openly hostile to them and their play.

    And my experience with the largest online spaces focused on the game is that they are hostile to players who aren’t looking to engage with the game in a narrow range of ways. There is constant background chatter around what “the game expects” or “the game demands”, and that chatter ultimately always paints a picture of a very rigid game with a very narrow focus on tactical combat with a narrow range of parameters.

    Meanwhile, the game includes rules that supports almost everything under the sun, including a significant list of feats, spells, and other player options that people regularly complain are too niche to even look at, many of which are explicitly focused on exploration, survival, or social engagement – you know, all of the things you’d want to include in your game if you were trying to release a general purpose fantasy roleplaying game.

    So, it all raises the question: Just who is this game actually for?

    While there doesn’t seem to be a consensus among the game’s audience – or, at least the part of it that is active on Reddit and the Paizo forums – about who Pathfinder 2e is for, there does seem to be relatively strong agreement about who it is not for: Everyone.

    And I’m not really sure I get it.

    I mean, ok, sure, nothing is truly for everybody all of the time. Even water isn’t going to do much for someone who’s not thirsty. PF2’s not going to be a great fit if you’re looking for early 20th century psychological horror, say, or if you’re in the mood to play a cozy game about contemporary hobby farming. But the line is not “this game isn’t necessarily the best fit for the type of thing the player wants to do right now”, it’s “this game isn’t for them”. And I know someone’s going to tell me I’m reading too much into that wording, but I don’t believe that I am.

    I think there’s a vocal group of people who like very particular things that PF2 enables, and who simultaneously do not care about other things that PF2 also enables, and who want to totally discount the latter while enshrining the former as the default – if not only – legitimate way to play the game.

    And that’s unfortunate, because Pathfinder 2e is an incredibly flexible and robust fantasy RPG with so many bits and pieces that you can lean into or remove as your table sees fit. Is it a one pager? No, of course not – there are a lot of rules to skim over and decide what you like and want to keep, and what you maybe can trim away – but you can pare it down very far and have something that supports your play (just look at Pathwarden, and its genre-neutral follow-up Warden, both of which are based off of the PF2 engine). Or consider Hellfinder, another pared down ‘hack’ of PF2 focused on modern horror, developed by Jason Bulmahn, lead designer of both Pathfinder 1e and 2e.

    The game is designed to be modular. It can be extended or stripped down almost as much as you want. This was the designers intent for the system.

    And I say with much confidence, the game feels really good played loosely. It’s a great engine for wacky nonsense, and light play. It’s great for a roleplay focused table, just as it is for a hardcore tactical combat focused group. It supports fiction-foreward play so much better than it’s given credit for.

    A response to the original post by u/SleepylaReef really hit something home for me. I don’t know that it’s fair to the OP, but it definitely holds a bit of a mirror up to this toxic vein:


    Lots of players never learn the game, period. So you decide if this person is a friend you like to spend time with and you accept their foillibles, or if they’re just tools you use to game with and you kick them out for not being good enough for you.


    For some people, the others sitting around the table are just tools to enable their own particular type of fun. For some people, there being others in the player pool who aren’t good tools for them is a waste of their time. This has become abundantly clear over time.


    Writing rants on the Fediverse is how I’m trying to wean myself off of that space. The book release schedule keeps reeling me back in!
  • KichaeK

    0. Rules As Intended

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    5. No Spam or Excessive Self-Promotion

    Have you produced some kind of creative work, or offer some kind of service, that is relevant to community members? Then we’re interested in hearing about it! But please show some restraint when sharing. Make sure you’re posting in the appropriate forum, and don’t be overzealous with your posting frequency.

    6. Follow Good Netiquette

    The basic rules of behaviour on the Internet have been handed down from medium to medium, forum to forum, user to user for actual, literal generations now. Adventurers are expected to have a basic understanding of The Deep Magic and adhere to proper netiquette and forum hygiene.


    0. Rules As Intended These rules exist to maintain the forum as a friendly, fun, and inclusive space. The intent and spirit of these rules are far, far more important than the letter. Engage in good faith; don’t be rules lawyers. 1. Be Civil Treat other adventurers with a basic level of respect. Do not pick on, insult, harass, grief, dox, or threaten other community members, or users of other websites using this forum (via the World page). We’re all just folk here. None of us are on our best behaviour all of the time, nor should we expect anyone to be. But if we all work to avoid toxicity, and to counter it when we find it coming from others, we can create a healthy space for us all. 2. No Bigotry Yes, this is covered under Rule 1, but let’s double down on this. Discriminatory or inflammatory comments related to peoples age, sex/gender, race/ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexuality, disabilities, or other identifying properties will not be tolerated. 3. No Explicitly Adult Content Try to keep thins PG-13. The hobby is enjoyed by adventurers of all ages, and we want to create an environment that is as welcoming as possible to everybody. The forum is accessible via other websites. If you want to engage in discussions that are not appropriate for minors while also engaging respectfully with other members of the party, please consider engaging remotely, via federated websites running services like Mastodon, Misskey, Lemmy, Friendica, or Hubzilla. 4. No Illegal Content or Activity Posting content that violates copyrights, or breaks the criminal codes of the United States or Canada, or which could be considered criminal solicitation endangers the community and is expressly forbidden. The forum is accessible from other websites that may be hosted in more liberal jurisdictions than WAP is, if you want to have such discussions. 5. No Spam or Excessive Self-Promotion Have you produced some kind of creative work, or offer some kind of service, that is relevant to community members? Then we’re interested in hearing about it! But please show some restraint when sharing. Make sure you’re posting in the appropriate forum, and don’t be overzealous with your posting frequency. 6. Follow Good Netiquette The basic rules of behaviour on the Internet have been handed down from medium to medium, forum to forum, user to user for actual, literal generations now. Adventurers are expected to have a basic understanding of The Deep Magic and adhere to proper netiquette and forum hygiene.
  • KichaeK

    Roll a Perception check before you act

    • When entering a new dungeon, it’s smart to Search it, and you will greatly improve your chances of surviving an encounter with an unknown denizen if you Recall Knowledge before you interact with them. This is true in digital dungeons, too! Lurking in the shadows and familiarising yourself with the customs and practices of the space before engaging will set you up for success better than charging in like Leroy Jenkins.

    Make sure you’re Trained in Society and Diplomacy

    • Your best tools in social encounters are Society and Diplomacy. Following the social conventions and speaking thoughtfully and respectfully, with consideration for where your audience is, will take you far.
      1. Use commas, paragraphs, and formatting tools (like parentheses – or even dashes!) to keep your communiques as legible as possible, and avoid using all-caps, as it’s considered to be the written equivalent to having your voice boom like you’re reminding someone to NOT TAKE YOU FOR SOME CONJURER OF CHEAP TRICKS.
      2. Stay on topic. Trying to change the subject of discussion, disrupt the discussion by holding other conversations in the comments, or hijacking an audience is considered bad form, and will impose a circumstance penalty on your CHA checks.
      3. Avoid posting empty or meaningless replies to topics in an attempt to lure wayward adventurers to the conversation. Creatures will quickly become immune to your Deception attempts.
      4. Do not attempt to use the Resurrect ritual on topics that have been dead and buried for a significant amount of time, particularly if you were not involved in the discussion during its natural life. Most folks fear Necromancers.
      5. Tag spoilers.

    Alignment Matters

    • Adventurers don’t usually take kindly to Evil characters in their party, and especially Chaotic Evil ones. Making your purpose getting a rise out of others, trying to ruin other adventurers’ fun, or just wanting to watch the world burn will mostly likely see you disinvited from the table.
      1. Don’t be a troll. Nor an Ogre, a Troglodyte, or any other large, clumsy bully.
      2. Don’t feed the trolls. Nor the Ogres, the Troglodytes, or… They feed off of your attention. Let them starve.
      3. No flaming. Fireball should not be cast indoors.
      4. No flame-baiting. Don’t entice others to cast Fireball on you.
      5. Don’t abuse your power. In your adventures, you will come across some people who have more powers or abilities than you, and many others who have less. Whether an apprentice cleric, a journeyman warrior, an archmage, or a master of games and dungeons, it’s prudent to understand that we are all at the same table. Using your powers for the table’s benefit, and giving the others you see sitting around the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to do the same creates a better adventuring environment!

    Don’t announce your parting.

    • You automatically fail your Stealth checks when you tell everyone you’re going to go hiding behind the bushes.

    Roll a Perception check before you act When entering a new dungeon, it’s smart to Search it, and you will greatly improve your chances of surviving an encounter with an unknown denizen if you Recall Knowledge before you interact with them. This is true in digital dungeons, too! Lurking in the shadows and familiarising yourself with the customs and practices of the space before engaging will set you up for success better than charging in like Leroy Jenkins. Make sure you’re Trained in Society and Diplomacy Your best tools in social encounters are Society and Diplomacy. Following the social conventions and speaking thoughtfully and respectfully, with consideration for where your audience is, will take you far. Use commas, paragraphs, and formatting tools (like parentheses – or even dashes!) to keep your communiques as legible as possible, and avoid using all-caps, as it’s considered to be the written equivalent to having your voice boom like you’re reminding someone to NOT TAKE YOU FOR SOME CONJURER OF CHEAP TRICKS. Stay on topic. Trying to change the subject of discussion, disrupt the discussion by holding other conversations in the comments, or hijacking an audience is considered bad form, and will impose a circumstance penalty on your CHA checks. Avoid posting empty or meaningless replies to topics in an attempt to lure wayward adventurers to the conversation. Creatures will quickly become immune to your Deception attempts. Do not attempt to use the Resurrect ritual on topics that have been dead and buried for a significant amount of time, particularly if you were not involved in the discussion during its natural life. Most folks fear Necromancers. Tag spoilers. Alignment Matters Adventurers don’t usually take kindly to Evil characters in their party, and especially Chaotic Evil ones. Making your purpose getting a rise out of others, trying to ruin other adventurers’ fun, or just wanting to watch the world burn will mostly likely see you disinvited from the table. Don’t be a troll. Nor an Ogre, a Troglodyte, or any other large, clumsy bully. Don’t feed the trolls. Nor the Ogres, the Troglodytes, or… They feed off of your attention. Let them starve. No flaming. Fireball should not be cast indoors. No flame-baiting. Don’t entice others to cast Fireball on you. Don’t abuse your power. In your adventures, you will come across some people who have more powers or abilities than you, and many others who have less. Whether an apprentice cleric, a journeyman warrior, an archmage, or a master of games and dungeons, it’s prudent to understand that we are all at the same table. Using your powers for the table’s benefit, and giving the others you see sitting around the benefit of the doubt that they are trying to do the same creates a better adventuring environment! Don’t announce your parting. You automatically fail your Stealth checks when you tell everyone you’re going to go hiding behind the bushes.
  • KichaeK

    Spend almost any amount of time below the fold of the Internet and you’re likely to come across someone smugly repeating their junior high grammar lessons in front of the whole of humanity. They’re telling someone they shouldn’t’ve used “should of”, that it’s not OK to use “its”, and that they’re nauseated by people claiming to feel nauseous. Or that you can’t start a sentence with a conjunction, even!

    Large scale social media tends towards competitive spaces, where participants are jockeying for likes, shares, up-votes, or some other form of passive micro-validation just in order to get eyeballs on what they have to say and to feel heard. Ironically, this tends to limit what someone can say, boiling a discussion down to a few choice strategies for gaining social approval.

    One of these strategies is flexing their intelligence by being technically correct, something that leads to engage in prescriptive rhetoric, like such as over-correcting someone’s grammar, even when everyone around understood what the original speaker was trying to say.

    TTRPG discussion tends towards prescriptivism as a mater of course, since rule sets are, well, prescriptions for playing the game. Rules also – generally speaking at least – have a singularly defined intent behind their existence, which while sometimes debatable, are not usually meant to be open to interpretation. Or, at least, this is the common conceit of spaces dedicated to discussing said rules. As a “crunchy” rule set with a specific focus on balance – and therefore on math and numerics – Pathfinder Second Edition discussions are especially prone to this kind of thing.

    I mean, it makes sense, right? The game has a lot of rules! Clearly it wants to be viewed through a prescriptivist, mechanics-first lens!

    Right?

    But what if it doesn’t?

    What if the more natural lens to view the game through is not the one that low-key paints it out to be an overly-needy and insufferable pedant? What if, instead, the designers knew they were making an imagination game built for co-operative storytelling, and not just Lord of the Rings X-COM with an atrocious frame rate? How might we interpret the the rules then?

    While the prescriptive view of the rules leads to a mechanics-first understanding of the game, a descriptive view supports a fiction-first one, and smooths over a lot of the rough edges that new players who are more accustomed to a less rigid form of play experience when trying out the game for the first time. For instance, many players coming from 3.5 or 5e take issue with the game’s ‘Action’ framework, where every thing that characters do in the game is filtered through pre-defined Actions such as Strike, Trip, Shove, Sense Motive, Seek, Take Cover, etc. They come across the fairly long list of basic Actions and see them as meaning that the game is finicky, and even demanding. Some even end up feeling that players are confined to only do things that are ‘pre-approved’ by the list.

    You know, because game rules are ‘supposed’ to tell you what players are supposed to, or allowed to, do.

    The descriptive interpretation of Basic Actions, though, is that they are describing typical play, and act as examples to the GM about how to handle rulings for the most common or useful cases, providing a framework for improvising actions in the process. Anyone familiar with other d20 fantasy games should quickly recognize that most Actions are just descriptions of skill checks, anyway, sometimes with a little rider or critical success/failure effect.

    The prescriptive, mechanics-first lens, then, has this tendency to make play sound very clinical, e.g.:

    Player 1: “I use the Stride Action to approach the enemy, the Trip Action, and the Strike Action with my longsword.”

    Player 2: I use the Cast a Spell Activity to cast Fireball, and then use the Cast a Spell Activity to cast Shield.

    even though this would sound totally bizarre and foreign to even most tactically invested tables. The fiction-first approach, though, sounds more natural (and also doesn’t require the player to remember the specific names of the various Actions):

    Player 1: “I charge the enemy, trying to knock him to the ground before attacking with my longsword!”

    Player 2: I cast Fireball, and then… umm… cast Shield.

    Here, it’s up to the GM to decide what “knocking the enemy to the ground” means, but the most common ruling for this is going to end up being “roll Athletics against Reflex” or “roll Athletics against Fortitude”. The game defines Trip by the former, and Reflex is, in fact, the save that makes the most sense if you’re trying to describe the reality of getting knocked off your feet – keeping yourself on your feet is usually more a feat of dexterity than it is of whatever “constitution” is!

    “But what if the GM picks Fortitude, like a stupid, uneducated philistine?," I hear you ask. "Doesn’t that break the tactical element of the game?” And yes, it kind of does! It would buff the defences of low Ref monsters, potentially considerably. If your table is concerned about maintaining good tactical hygiene, it’s important for GMs to either remember that Trip is Ref and Shove is Fort, or have a strong enough understanding of hand-to-hand combat to intuitively know what is a DEX-based save and what is a CON-based one. But if your table isn’t concerned about tactical hygiene?

    Then it probably doesn’t matter.

    And if your table is concerned about it, but it’s somebody else’s table that’s running it that way, it definitely doesn’t matter to you.

    I know this all sounds pretty pedantic so far. Really, what’s the big difference between being more formal and stiff with describing your turn vs being more fluid and narrative? At the end of the day, the math is all the same, and the game ends up playing the same way, right?

    Well, things start to diverge pretty quickly once you start pointing your descriptive lens at various elements of the game.

    The Game Expects…

    It is sometimes shocking how demanding some people believe the game to be. Every time I turn around, it feels like someone is telling a new player or a struggling GM that “the game expects” this, and “the game expects” that, and every time I see it I’m left wondering if people bought very different books than I did, or if the Archives of Nethys are serving up very different pages to me, for it seems like they’re playing a very different game than the one I engage in each week.

    “The game expects" is, of course, the catchphrase of prescriptivism.

    The most common topics subject to this line of thinking are things like:

    • player conditions (“the game expects everyone to be at full health at the start of battle”)
    • gold at level [n]”)
    • encounter size (“the game expects battles to have budgets of no more than 160 XP”)
    • character stat distributions (“the game expects you to have a +4 in your key attribute” or “the game expects you to have potency and striking runes by level [n]”).

    All of these statements regularly bring the system into conflict with new players and GMs – particularly those coming from 5e – and, importantly, literally none of them are true. But at this point, they’re all practically dogma to the most vocal parts of the online Pathfinder 2e community.

    The descriptive lens on these elements are that these are mostly – the first three, in particular – just signposts, or marked gradations that are useful for reference: If you build an 80 XP encounter, it will present a Moderate threat to a party of 4 who are at full HP; if your encounter has 120 HP, it will use significant party resources, and may even turn deadly, for a party of 4 at full health; etc. If your party is at half their max HP, however, the counters could end up being much more difficult! If you build a 100 XP encounter, it will be more dangerous than an 80 XP fight!

    Importantly, you do not need to decide on the difficulty of the encounter before you build it. You can, instead, decide that there’s a Goblin raiding camp over this hill, and it just so happens to have 5 Goblin Commandos, 2 Goblin Pyros, and 20 Goblin Warriors in it, just come back from a successful raid. For a party of 4 Level 3 adventurers, this camp represents a 100 + 40 + 200 = 340 XP encounter, which is more than twice the power budget of an Extreme encounter. As a GM, you know that this camp is a problem for your party.

    But the game is about finding solutions to problems, is it not?

    The prescriptive lens says that this encounter is illegal – outside the bounds of the rules – since the encounter barometer caps off at 160 XP, but the descriptive lens just says “sounds like the party’s going to get messed up right some good”.

    A similar thing plays out if we look at the Treasure by Level table. The prescriptivist view is that players must get 3 Level 1 consumables, 2 Level 2 consumables, 2 permanent items of both Level 1 and Level 2, plus 40 gold in coin and disposable treasure over the span of Level 1. They shall not receive less, and they should not receive more (within reason)! If the GM does not give them their allotted entitlement, then that GM is starving the PCs and depriving their players of the Proper Pathfinder Experience! And they’re just running the game wrong!

    But the thing is, this requires GMs to craft encounters that have just the right loot buried in them, or to create environments that have just the right amount of treasure for reasons beyond reasonable explanation. Shouldn’t the environment the players find themselves in dictate how much loot, and of what kind, the players find? Shouldn’t the amount of effort players put into actually looking for loot matter? The descriptivist GM would say so, but the (strawman) prescriptiveist would say that their Level 1 players find 40 gp and some healing potions for robbing a bank, and in the process they might only come across a couple of guards, throwing themselves at them black ninja style.

    Through the descriptivist lens, the Treasure by Level table just tells us where the sweet spot in the power curve is. At each level, a certain amount of the player’s power budget is taken up by items and gear, and the Treasure by Level table marks off where the standard is for each level. A player who has significantly less than listed will be less powerful than the ‘Standard’ character of their level, and the one who has significantly more than what’s listed will be more powerful. But being below or above the curve isn’t a problem through this lens, it’s just a description of the current state of the game. If players are under the curve, they may find 80 XP encounters a little harder than the ‘Moderate’ description, and if they’re over it, they’ll find them a little easier.

    And that’s OK.

    The Prescriptive Lens and Tactical Power Gaming

    Things like battle budgets and treasure tables make sense as things people would see as dictated by the game, since they are directly part of the text of the rule books. Even though the game text does not come out and directly use the word “should” when discussing these topics, it’s totally logical that a new GM is going to look at them and say “this is what the game recommends”. And for a new table, these do a huge amount of the heavy lifting with respect to providing predictable combat encounters, which are touted as one of the major selling points of the system.

    But where do these ideas around players being ‘expected’ to have full health, or ‘needing’ to have a +4 in their key attribute come from? They’re not found in any of the rule books! At least, not explicitly. And they’re not things that new players or GMs would necessarily intuit from reading the text.

    Many argue that the the received wisdom of always having full health is a corollary of the encounter building system, since fights are bigger threats than advertised if players are significantly lacking in resources. For some reason, however, the only resource people seem to insist that players should not be lacking is HP, even though the designers will specifically call out Spell Slots, Focus Points, and even consumables when discussing the topic. The idea that player are entitled to full spell slots, free potions, or a flight of Alchemist’s Fire just never seems to come up.

    The real clue is in the rhetoric around the key ability modifier. Again, not something that comes up anywhere in the system’s library, the received wisdom to maximize this value comes from the fact that it optimizes damage. And if you spend time observing the community’s attitudes towards sub-optimal play, things really start to snap into focus.

    The majority of online discussions about Pathfinder 2e are quietly, almost secretly, power gaming or optimization discussions, regardless of whether the people initiating the discussion are seeking optimization advice. Some fans have even argued that the expectation of optimization is baked into the game’s core, built on top of the assumption that the game is really a tactical combat game wearing the skin of a roleplaying game. Power gamers and tactical combat game fans both love rigid systems and predictable math, and Pathfinder 2e provides plenty of the latter. The game can easily and much more reliably present what these groups are looking for than many other systems out there, especially if they also want in on that d20 fantasy lifestyle. But the idea that it’s a roleplaying game second?

    This is a thesis that I, personally, vigorously and wholeheartedly reject.

    The game can be a rigid, tactical power game, if that’s how you want to utilize the the tools in its toolbox. And if it is, more power to you. I’m really quite incredibly glad the game can be played in that way, both because I like a big tent, and also because I like the occasional tactical combat game (Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle is by far my favourite game I got from Ubisoft during my tenure with the company), but it can also be a lot of other things, depending on how you utilize those tools.

    Because that’s what the rules are: Tools to help you craft a gaming experience tailored to your table. And these tools work just as well, and make just as much sense – if not more – if viewed through a descriptive, fiction-first lens. And playing the game in a fiction-first way quickly highlights that Pathfinder 2e is a very flexible, kitchen-sink fantasy RPG that is just as good at being a collective storytelling engine as it is at being a crunchy, mechanics-first tactical sword and sorcery game.

    It doesn’t get nearly as much credit or attention for this as it deserves.


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    @rhaxapopouetl@ttrpg.network Rules light systems are kind of weird in this framework, aren’t they? Especially micro systems, like one-pagers. Being rules light and short on page space, they trust their audience to not rules lawyering munchkins, and many just go straight to describing the mechanics (well, that and the premise/ of course). But they’re obviously fiction-first games. It’s the crunchy games where things seem to get… frustrating, with many people reading them through a mechanics-first lens, and then asking over and over again “why does X work like this”? Or “why does Y even exist when it’s not as good as Z? Who would ever pick that?” Entire player cohorts ignore the idea that designers create the rules and options to support a fiction. I haven’t played many rules-light games, but I’ve never personally seen this behavioir from those players. I’ld love to hear some horror stories to gain some perspective, though.