Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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@pluralistic the cruelty is of course the point.
It's similar here in the UK. "If only they came here legally", the Reformers cry about refugees arriving on small boats. As if A) this isn't actually legal and B) this doesn't only happen because all practical routes have been shut down by the government.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic
Whenever anyone says they're "proud to be an American" I congratulate them on getting through the US naturalization process, which is difficult. If they respond they were just born there, I have to say "dude, your parents did that, not you!" -
not to waste your time in things I can look up, but what could people do efficiently in other countries that they couldn't do in the US?
Full disclosure: My wife is Japanese and had a green card in the US before we moved to Japan
We didn't follow through to her becoming a citizen, but what we did to deal with her green card involved a total of 1 meeting and a couple of forms
I have seen how others around us who weren't coming from a first world country to marry an American were being treated - I'm not trying to defend that
I'm challenging the statement that it is worse than applying in other countries
Honestly, I skimmed the main article and found it full of emotions and low on facts and nothing at all like what my wife went through
But I WILL admit that US govt processes are a mare's nest. Often times, ironically, in an effort to be fair.
Also, ironically - this complaint against American bureaucracy is one of MAGA's biggest compliants
@mavnn @pluralistic @codebyjeff
You're not wrong. Every country tries to make it hard for poorer people to immigrate. I'm married to a very organized white woman who drowned the application in documents. It went smoothly since it is the most straightforward and easiest way to become a citizen. And we had it easy. Even then the vagueness of questions that put you at risk of defrauding is immense. We didn't have chatbots 4 years ago when I was in the process but the time we spent on the phone was huge. And there are mistakes that happen (by their agents) and there's no way you can iron out those with a chatbot. The system is built so it is complicated, frustrating and in a way, in the end if they choose to, they can blame you for false information and escalate it to defrauding and cancel all out. So you can feel it's not an honest system. -
@pluralistic
Whenever anyone says they're "proud to be an American" I congratulate them on getting through the US naturalization process, which is difficult. If they respond they were just born there, I have to say "dude, your parents did that, not you!"Well, in my case I had some great-great-great ancestors who fought to make this a country in the first place. But, yeah. Being 'born in the USA' is like being 'born rich'. You didn't do anything to earn it, you just got lucky in terms of which womb you popped out of.
Oh, and as for being proud of my ancestors? Not so much. Others did terrible things to indigenous peoples or were on the wrong side of the Civil War.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic Horrendous. I'm a privileged white guy who emigrated to the U.S. on a green card in 1977. No lawyers. I made one visit to the U.S. Embassy in London, and after a short outsourced medical exam, the Ambassador shook my hand and said, "We're glad you're coming to the United States."
Didn't even think of becoming a citizen until 1994. No lawyers. The paper application was easy to fill out. After an interview, I was "naturalized" at a surreal ceremony in Derby Line, VT.
No more.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic Another another Canadian who had to deal with it (in my case through marriage which is supposedly the easiest path) it still took close to 8 years and more lawyers fees and application fees than I care to think about.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic That sounds awful!
And I'm German. Used to well-crafted bureaucratic mazes of considerable size. And very aware that our bureaucracy is also much harder for immigrants and other less privileged groups.
But I think it's not *that* cruel. And does not have *such* open ties to capitalist profit-seeking by immigration lawyers et al.
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@pluralistic Fair point, but I'd rather not live there at all!
@pa27
This was my logic too - you get more rights, in theory. And it used to be a better place to live. Great? Maybe not. But better. -
@pluralistic Horrendous. I'm a privileged white guy who emigrated to the U.S. on a green card in 1977. No lawyers. I made one visit to the U.S. Embassy in London, and after a short outsourced medical exam, the Ambassador shook my hand and said, "We're glad you're coming to the United States."
Didn't even think of becoming a citizen until 1994. No lawyers. The paper application was easy to fill out. After an interview, I was "naturalized" at a surreal ceremony in Derby Line, VT.
No more.
@pluralistic @ASegar I got a US visa in 1973 at the Embassy in London. Filled in a small form, went to collect passport with visa "valid indefinitely for multiple applications". Never went in the end.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
1/
@pluralistic I've always wondered why I hear so much more about "undocumented immigrants" in the USA than anywhere else
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@pluralistic Horrendous. I'm a privileged white guy who emigrated to the U.S. on a green card in 1977. No lawyers. I made one visit to the U.S. Embassy in London, and after a short outsourced medical exam, the Ambassador shook my hand and said, "We're glad you're coming to the United States."
Didn't even think of becoming a citizen until 1994. No lawyers. The paper application was easy to fill out. After an interview, I was "naturalized" at a surreal ceremony in Derby Line, VT.
No more.
@ASegar @pluralistic Mine was in a federal court, where we handed in green cards and had this whole ceremony with a video (and signed letter) from Obama, reciting the pledge of allegiance, a lecture on how important voting is, etc. Is that what it was like back then?
I always wondered how it evolved over time, presumably becoming increasingly patriotic.
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@ASegar @pluralistic Mine was in a federal court, where we handed in green cards and had this whole ceremony with a video (and signed letter) from Obama, reciting the pledge of allegiance, a lecture on how important voting is, etc. Is that what it was like back then?
I always wondered how it evolved over time, presumably becoming increasingly patriotic.
@tehstu @pluralistic My naturalization ceremony was surreal because it was organized by the INS and included a) a bunch of VFW folks marching down the aisle, and b) a "comedian" who told jokes, supposedly about Vermont, that weren't funny.
When our kids were naturalized (such a weird term), they had a lovely ceremony in Federal court, where the judge, in a moving speech, said this was the best part of his job.
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Well, in my case I had some great-great-great ancestors who fought to make this a country in the first place. But, yeah. Being 'born in the USA' is like being 'born rich'. You didn't do anything to earn it, you just got lucky in terms of which womb you popped out of.
Oh, and as for being proud of my ancestors? Not so much. Others did terrible things to indigenous peoples or were on the wrong side of the Civil War.
@serfdeweb @pluralistic @jackwilliambell my ancestors showed up during the days of open immigration. Just step off the ship and say you were a citizen.
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@pluralistic @ASegar I got a US visa in 1973 at the Embassy in London. Filled in a small form, went to collect passport with visa "valid indefinitely for multiple applications". Never went in the end.
@annehargreaves @pluralistic @ASegar My first US visa (which I was stretching the definition of, but always was completely honest on entry, so I think it was stretch not break) was "indefinite". Which I think was later redefined as 10 years (or some such figure). This was 1987 (used until 1988).
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@pluralistic yeah, I'm sorry but I'm tired of
"'by international standards"
as a stand in for Britain, Canada, Europe & America
We may or may not have a shit process, but I doubt you researched the rest of the world to determine what is "normal"
I live in Japan, and good luck becoming a full-time resident here
@codebyjeff @pluralistic I live in France. We know how bad our system is because of language tests and general culture questions even French people would have a hard time answering. But for knowing several people who applied for citizenship, at no point is there things as twisted as 1200p forms to fill (long forms sure, but not that long).
This is batshit insane, but the US is known to set up crazy things in place (the Healthcare system for ex.) and people there being confused when discovering that "No, we don't do *batshit crazy thing* in the rest of the world. Only you do."
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There are lots of Americans (who don't know anything about their own immigration system) who advocate for a "points-based" system that favors rich people and professionals, but America *already* has this system, because dealing with the immigration process costs tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, and without a lawyer, it is essentially unnavigable.
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@pluralistic Exactly the same in the UK. I am a native English speaker, can read and understand forms, legal documents (to some extent) and have been navigating government web pages since they were invented; yet I could not help him through the immigration process and we had to get a ££ lawyer. You have this spot on, as always.
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@codebyjeff @pluralistic I live in France. We know how bad our system is because of language tests and general culture questions even French people would have a hard time answering. But for knowing several people who applied for citizenship, at no point is there things as twisted as 1200p forms to fill (long forms sure, but not that long).
This is batshit insane, but the US is known to set up crazy things in place (the Healthcare system for ex.) and people there being confused when discovering that "No, we don't do *batshit crazy thing* in the rest of the world. Only you do."
@Enthalpiste @codebyjeff @pluralistic That’s called “American exceptionalism” in Australia.
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@codebyjeff @pluralistic I live in France. We know how bad our system is because of language tests and general culture questions even French people would have a hard time answering. But for knowing several people who applied for citizenship, at no point is there things as twisted as 1200p forms to fill (long forms sure, but not that long).
This is batshit insane, but the US is known to set up crazy things in place (the Healthcare system for ex.) and people there being confused when discovering that "No, we don't do *batshit crazy thing* in the rest of the world. Only you do."
@Enthalpiste @codebyjeff @pluralistic
There is also this crazy thing, that when you open a bank account in The Netherlands, a full half of all formalities and questions, involves dealing with possible US tax status. The system of the Hegemony is visible everywhere.
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Can you recover the dates of every border crossing your parents made into the USA from the day they were born until the day they became citizens?
Anyone who says that "immigrants should just follow the rules" has missed the fact that *the rules are impossible to follow*.
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@pluralistic And not just in the USA (though the USA may be the most crackers example)
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@Enthalpiste @codebyjeff @pluralistic
There is also this crazy thing, that when you open a bank account in The Netherlands, a full half of all formalities and questions, involves dealing with possible US tax status. The system of the Hegemony is visible everywhere.
@gvenema @codebyjeff @pluralistic Ah yes. I lived in the NL for a couple month and that was funny when opening my account. I also had to pay taxes there by filling the little 40 pages long booklet but at least the belastingdienst also sends you the 40 pages long instruction manual (in dutch) to do so correctly. Didn't feel lost at all while not speaking the language very well.
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