Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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One guy, Elon Musk, took the immigration system from "frustrating and inefficient" to "totally impossible." That same guy is an avowed white nationalist - and illegal US immigrant who *did* cheat the immigration system - who sadistically celebrates the unlimited cruelty the immigration system heaps on other immigrants:
https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118277/documents/HHRG-119-JU13-20250520-SD003.pdf
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Again: I've got it easy. The people they want to put in concentration camps are doing something a million times harder than anything I've had to do to become a US citizen. People sometimes joke about how Americans couldn't pass the US citizenship test, with its questions about the tortured syntax of the 10th Amendment and the different branches of government.
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Again: I've got it easy. The people they want to put in concentration camps are doing something a million times harder than anything I've had to do to become a US citizen. People sometimes joke about how Americans couldn't pass the US citizenship test, with its questions about the tortured syntax of the 10th Amendment and the different branches of government.
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But the US citizenship test is the *easy* part. That test sits at the center of a bureaucratic maze that no American could find their way through.
eof/
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@jcsteh @pluralistic Agreed, and I became a citizen last year. People born here don't have to take a test and wait years to be able to do it.
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
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If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic Why would anyone - especially a canadian - even want to be s US citizen, is beyond me!
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@pluralistic Why would anyone - especially a canadian - even want to be s US citizen, is beyond me!
@pa27 Because I live in the USA. Would you rather be a NON-citizen in the USA?
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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"it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:"
Why would we?
None of us have ever passed through it, and very few of us have ever assisted anyone though it
Have you collected data on the immigration process from other countries, to compare?
Have you collected information from people world-wide about their understanding of their own country's immigration process?
It's obvious to me that few non-Americans have any idea how to see things from an American point of view
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"it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:"
Why would we?
None of us have ever passed through it, and very few of us have ever assisted anyone though it
Have you collected data on the immigration process from other countries, to compare?
Have you collected information from people world-wide about their understanding of their own country's immigration process?
It's obvious to me that few non-Americans have any idea how to see things from an American point of view
@codebyjeff Yes. I also was naturalized as a Briton, and my father was naturalized as a Canadian. The American system is incredibly bad, by international standards.
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@codebyjeff Yes. I also was naturalized as a Briton, and my father was naturalized as a Canadian. The American system is incredibly bad, by international standards.
@pluralistic yeah, I'm sorry but I'm tired of
"'by international standards"
as a stand in for Britain, Canada, Europe & America
We may or may not have a shit process, but I doubt you researched the rest of the world to determine what is "normal"
I live in Japan, and good luck becoming a full-time resident here
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@codebyjeff Yes. I also was naturalized as a Briton, and my father was naturalized as a Canadian. The American system is incredibly bad, by international standards.
@pluralistic@mamot.fr @codebyjeff@hachyderm.io I have family members who have applied for (and in some cases received) naturalization to seven different nationalities. The US applications were the most time consuming and expensive by an enormous margin. Not because the actual requirements were more restrictive (all four US applications were eventually successful, while some of the others were not), but because of the process.
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@pa27 Because I live in the USA. Would you rather be a NON-citizen in the USA?
@pluralistic Fair point, but I'd rather not live there at all!
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@pluralistic@mamot.fr @codebyjeff@hachyderm.io I have family members who have applied for (and in some cases received) naturalization to seven different nationalities. The US applications were the most time consuming and expensive by an enormous margin. Not because the actual requirements were more restrictive (all four US applications were eventually successful, while some of the others were not), but because of the process.
not to waste your time in things I can look up, but what could people do efficiently in other countries that they couldn't do in the US?
Full disclosure: My wife is Japanese and had a green card in the US before we moved to Japan
We didn't follow through to her becoming a citizen, but what we did to deal with her green card involved a total of 1 meeting and a couple of forms
I have seen how others around us who weren't coming from a first world country to marry an American were being treated - I'm not trying to defend that
I'm challenging the statement that it is worse than applying in other countries
Honestly, I skimmed the main article and found it full of emotions and low on facts and nothing at all like what my wife went through
But I WILL admit that US govt processes are a mare's nest. Often times, ironically, in an effort to be fair.
Also, ironically - this complaint against American bureaucracy is one of MAGA's biggest compliants
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not to waste your time in things I can look up, but what could people do efficiently in other countries that they couldn't do in the US?
Full disclosure: My wife is Japanese and had a green card in the US before we moved to Japan
We didn't follow through to her becoming a citizen, but what we did to deal with her green card involved a total of 1 meeting and a couple of forms
I have seen how others around us who weren't coming from a first world country to marry an American were being treated - I'm not trying to defend that
I'm challenging the statement that it is worse than applying in other countries
Honestly, I skimmed the main article and found it full of emotions and low on facts and nothing at all like what my wife went through
But I WILL admit that US govt processes are a mare's nest. Often times, ironically, in an effort to be fair.
Also, ironically - this complaint against American bureaucracy is one of MAGA's biggest compliants
@codebyjeff@hachyderm.io @pluralistic@mamot.fr So firstly: some other countries suck as well, just to be clear. Just maybe not as much
. My wife getting her UK citizenship was far harder than it had any reason to be (answer questions on British TV shows I had never watchedβ, do an English test that required a much lower level than she'd had to demonstrate for existing profressional qualifications from a UK university, etc).But the main difference just seemed to be in the sheer volume of information you needed to find and submit, and obviously the more you submit the more there is that can be challenged, that you might have made a mistake on, that you might forget.
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@codebyjeff@hachyderm.io @pluralistic@mamot.fr So firstly: some other countries suck as well, just to be clear. Just maybe not as much
. My wife getting her UK citizenship was far harder than it had any reason to be (answer questions on British TV shows I had never watchedβ, do an English test that required a much lower level than she'd had to demonstrate for existing profressional qualifications from a UK university, etc).But the main difference just seemed to be in the sheer volume of information you needed to find and submit, and obviously the more you submit the more there is that can be challenged, that you might have made a mistake on, that you might forget.
@mavnn @pluralistic yes, the forms, forms, forms is absolutely out of control
no debate there
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@mavnn @pluralistic yes, the forms, forms, forms is absolutely out of control
no debate there
@codebyjeff@hachyderm.io @pluralistic@mamot.fr βAs a counter example one of my cousins applied for Australian citizenship and was rejected but the process was shorter, cheaper, and the reasons given were clear cut (if borderline enough that they had tried applying regardless). The UK process was long and ridiculous in places, but it was always clear what you had to do next, and where you had to go to get it. The Italians rejected my request on the basis of a rule that they changed retroactively (yay, different right wing government of a few years back) but at least submitting the request took me a fairly small amount of time and money (hundreds of euros, maybe a day of work)
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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Meanwhile a certain E. Musk probably did a lot of that perjuring and defrauding.
But hey, if you can hang Kesslers syndrome over all our heads then I really meant to say that he is a really swell guy...
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@pluralistic the whole deporting people who have open pending cases is absolutely atrocious and nobody is doing Jack shit about it. It's like the one clear thing they can bring uscis to court on
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But then my kid applied to university and was told that she should sign up for FASFA, which is the federal student loan and grant process; she got pretty good grades and there was a chance she could get a couple grand knocked off her tuition. Seemed like a good idea to me.
So we filled in the FASFA paperwork, and partway through, it asks if you are a naturalized citizen, and, if you are, it asks you to upload a copy of your certificate of citizenship.
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@pluralistic FAFSA? FERPA is a privacy act
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Having been through the US immigration process (I got my first work visa more than 25 years ago and became a citizen in 2022), it's obvious to me that Americans have *no idea* how weird and tortuous their immigration system is:
--
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this thread to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
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@jcsteh @pluralistic I have lived in the United States for nearly 30 years. The only thing left was the interview, but I withdrew my citizenship application in 2017. You can probably guess why.
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It's also a timely reminder of the awesome destructive power of a single billionaire. This week, I took a Southwest flight to visit my daughter at college for her 18th birthday, and of course, SWA now charges for bags and seats. Multiple passengers complained bitterly and loudly about this as they boarded (despite the fact that the plane was only half full, many people were given middle seats and banned from moving to empty rows).
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@pluralistic I had this EXACT same experience this week. Short SWA flight that was only half full. All the passengers squeezed together in the middle of the plane with rows of empty seats in front. And they made it very clear you had to remain your assigned seat.
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@pluralistic FAFSA? FERPA is a privacy act
@janeadams Right you are - thanks!
