#WritersCoffeeClub Day 5: What's a no-longer popular trend in writing you'd like to see make a comeback?
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#WritersCoffeeClub Day 5: What's a no-longer popular trend in writing you'd like to see make a comeback?
#Folklore books collecting new tales from current oral storytellers.
The oral folk storytelling tradition in Germany is pretty dead, and has been for several generations - and we were lucky that there so many folklorists collecting them while they were still circulating.
But there are many countries and cultures that _still_ have a living storytelling tradition, and I hope that there are people collecting these tales before they are gone!
@juergen_hubert There's a whole department at Wuhan University dedicated to that. This makes me feel good.
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@juergen_hubert There's a whole department at Wuhan University dedicated to that. This makes me feel good.
Yeah, heritage preservation is important - and not just the heritage of the wealthy, but also that of "ordinary people".
The Brothers Grimm got that one right, and they get huge props from me for that.
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Yeah, heritage preservation is important - and not just the heritage of the wealthy, but also that of "ordinary people".
The Brothers Grimm got that one right, and they get huge props from me for that.
@juergen_hubert Those blue books of assorted minority folklore I have are all from that department of the university and the professors go all over the place very specifically to get the tales of the common people.
This is how the Legend of Darkness was rediscovered after a thousand years' absence.
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@juergen_hubert Those blue books of assorted minority folklore I have are all from that department of the university and the professors go all over the place very specifically to get the tales of the common people.
This is how the Legend of Darkness was rediscovered after a thousand years' absence.
Well, I wish them luck - they have a _lot_ of territory to cover.
German folklorists published collections not only for specific states, but even districts within those states, and found no shortage of new material - and Germany is _tiny_ when compared to the vastness of China.
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Well, I wish them luck - they have a _lot_ of territory to cover.
German folklorists published collections not only for specific states, but even districts within those states, and found no shortage of new material - and Germany is _tiny_ when compared to the vastness of China.
@juergen_hubert They have the advantage that for most of history the Chinese have been obsessive record-keepers. But yes, it's vast and oh so old.
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@juergen_hubert They have the advantage that for most of history the Chinese have been obsessive record-keepers. But yes, it's vast and oh so old.
Being obsessive record keepers is useful for that purpose, but only if those records actually include the stuff you need for your research.
From what I gather, in much of the Arab world folk tales featuring supernatural elements were dismissed as "Old wives' tales" - not something any _serious_ (i.e. male) scholars should bother with. And thus, we know very little of the folk tales of that region.
As for Germany, the folklorists did draw upon a lot of old chronicles and their accounts of the supernatural, but it's often hard to know where chroniclers got their information from. The process of simply _asking_ rural storytellers for their tales and thus getting stories with a good provenance only really started in the 19th century.
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Being obsessive record keepers is useful for that purpose, but only if those records actually include the stuff you need for your research.
From what I gather, in much of the Arab world folk tales featuring supernatural elements were dismissed as "Old wives' tales" - not something any _serious_ (i.e. male) scholars should bother with. And thus, we know very little of the folk tales of that region.
As for Germany, the folklorists did draw upon a lot of old chronicles and their accounts of the supernatural, but it's often hard to know where chroniclers got their information from. The process of simply _asking_ rural storytellers for their tales and thus getting stories with a good provenance only really started in the 19th century.
@juergen_hubert When I say obsessive, I mean **obsessive**. There's records that detail little tricks that farmers used to protect their yields from vermin. It's ... kind of awesome to look at.
But even with this, huge swaths of them have been lost to disaster, to war, and to neglect. And this even attacks the foundational knowledge of Chinese culture.
For example we have no idea what much of the Yijing means; it's basically a quick reference for a bunch of oral traditions, not a manual.
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@juergen_hubert When I say obsessive, I mean **obsessive**. There's records that detail little tricks that farmers used to protect their yields from vermin. It's ... kind of awesome to look at.
But even with this, huge swaths of them have been lost to disaster, to war, and to neglect. And this even attacks the foundational knowledge of Chinese culture.
For example we have no idea what much of the Yijing means; it's basically a quick reference for a bunch of oral traditions, not a manual.
Well, that does sound promising! I'm looking forward to a time when all this becomes more widely known in the world.
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@juergen_hubert When I say obsessive, I mean **obsessive**. There's records that detail little tricks that farmers used to protect their yields from vermin. It's ... kind of awesome to look at.
But even with this, huge swaths of them have been lost to disaster, to war, and to neglect. And this even attacks the foundational knowledge of Chinese culture.
For example we have no idea what much of the Yijing means; it's basically a quick reference for a bunch of oral traditions, not a manual.
@juergen_hubert That being said, it was a university professor stumbling on a few funeral singers in the depths of Hubei's countryside that resurrected knowledge of China's entire creation myth, something long thought lost to the mists of history.
There's gold in them there countryside hills. For now. The Legend of Darkness was (re)discovered at the last possible time when it could have been.
How much more are we losing?
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Well, that does sound promising! I'm looking forward to a time when all this becomes more widely known in the world.
@juergen_hubert I kind of hold the opinion that most people don't care enough anymore for this to survive.
I mentioned that we almost lost the foundational story of Chinese culture; it was literally rescued in the last decade where it could have been. No younger people took up the calling of funeral singer and the songs were left in the heads and handwritten cheap notebooks of under a hundred old men.None of whom are alive any longer.
The western disease of shame at the past has set in.
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@juergen_hubert That being said, it was a university professor stumbling on a few funeral singers in the depths of Hubei's countryside that resurrected knowledge of China's entire creation myth, something long thought lost to the mists of history.
There's gold in them there countryside hills. For now. The Legend of Darkness was (re)discovered at the last possible time when it could have been.
How much more are we losing?
The answer, as always, is: "Too much."
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@juergen_hubert I kind of hold the opinion that most people don't care enough anymore for this to survive.
I mentioned that we almost lost the foundational story of Chinese culture; it was literally rescued in the last decade where it could have been. No younger people took up the calling of funeral singer and the songs were left in the heads and handwritten cheap notebooks of under a hundred old men.None of whom are alive any longer.
The western disease of shame at the past has set in.
...I am not sure if this can be wholly blamed on the West. I mean, I am not as well-versed in #Marxism as other people, but I _think_ he only called for the destruction of old social structures, not for the erasure of history.
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@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org The west in general has a very uncomfortable relationship with its history.
In India, in Japan, in China, in Korea you'll see people wearing clothing, say, from ancient times without it being considered weird. What would happen if someone in Germany went about their day with outfits from a mere 300 years ago? People in the same aforementioned countries can (and do!) recite poetry from memory from a thousand or more years ago. How many Germans can?
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@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org The west in general has a very uncomfortable relationship with its history.
In India, in Japan, in China, in Korea you'll see people wearing clothing, say, from ancient times without it being considered weird. What would happen if someone in Germany went about their day with outfits from a mere 300 years ago? People in the same aforementioned countries can (and do!) recite poetry from memory from a thousand or more years ago. How many Germans can?
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๏ธ@ZDL@mstdn.social @ZDL@gamerplus.org
"What would happen if someone in Germany went about their day with outfits from a mere 300 years ago?"
"Must be a folk festival around here!", probably. Or a Mittelaltermarkt.
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@ZDL@mstdn.social @ZDL@gamerplus.org
"What would happen if someone in Germany went about their day with outfits from a mere 300 years ago?"
"Must be a folk festival around here!", probably. Or a Mittelaltermarkt.
@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org In other words it would be considered a costume; and upon realization that this is not for some kind of folk activity but is daily wear?
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@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org In other words it would be considered a costume; and upon realization that this is not for some kind of folk activity but is daily wear?
@ZDL@mstdn.social @ZDL@gamerplus.org
Yeah, and?
Reserving certain clothes for special occasions does not mean you _hate_ it.
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@ZDL@mstdn.social @ZDL@gamerplus.org
Yeah, and?
Reserving certain clothes for special occasions does not mean you _hate_ it.
@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org I think it's more embarrassment.
Like I said, people in this part of the world routinely wear clothing styles from hundreds to THOUSANDS of years ago without raising any kind of an eyebrow. Along with the recitation of ancient poetry and/or literature, etc. The past is still alive here, not carefully packaged into specific activities, any deviation from which causes murmuring and side-eye.
(It's even worse in North America!)
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@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org I think it's more embarrassment.
Like I said, people in this part of the world routinely wear clothing styles from hundreds to THOUSANDS of years ago without raising any kind of an eyebrow. Along with the recitation of ancient poetry and/or literature, etc. The past is still alive here, not carefully packaged into specific activities, any deviation from which causes murmuring and side-eye.
(It's even worse in North America!)
@ZDL@mstdn.social @ZDL@gamerplus.org
German fashion has changed a _lot_ throughout the centuries. Why should it be any different today?
Also, the German-language literature tradition is not that old - before the arrival of movable type, most written texts were in Latin.
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@ZDL@mstdn.social @ZDL@gamerplus.org
German fashion has changed a _lot_ throughout the centuries. Why should it be any different today?
Also, the German-language literature tradition is not that old - before the arrival of movable type, most written texts were in Latin.
@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org You think fashion hasn't changed in Japan or Korea or China or Vietnam or India or .... over the centuries?
Most people *don't* wear, say, Tang-era clothing here. It's just that wearing it isn't viewed as all that weird. It's something I'll see on the subway two or three times a week (usually on women, to be fair) without anybody even giving a second glance (unless the woman is shapely, natch).
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@juergen_hubert @ZDL@gamerplus.org You think fashion hasn't changed in Japan or Korea or China or Vietnam or India or .... over the centuries?
Most people *don't* wear, say, Tang-era clothing here. It's just that wearing it isn't viewed as all that weird. It's something I'll see on the subway two or three times a week (usually on women, to be fair) without anybody even giving a second glance (unless the woman is shapely, natch).
@ZDL@mstdn.social @ZDL@gamerplus.org
I am sorry, but I ultimately have to disagree with your perspective here.
It is up to the people of a certain culture how to celebrate their history. And I have traveled all across Germany, and everywhere I have found examples of Germans celebrating and preserving their history - by preserving old buildings, establishing museums, giving guided tours, recreating old crafts, or should putting up some explanatory signs at historically significant locations. This is the work of thousands of non-government associations and innumerable volunteers.
And that kind of appreciation of history is just as valid as wearing clothing styles of past centuries or reciting old poems.
