'There are no plans to drop support for SteamOS': The Finals devs commit to Steam Deck and Linux players despite new kernel-level anti-cheat
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Not to mention you just cannot ever trust the client to be running the the code it says it is on the hardware it says it is.
And this is the problem. I really don’t think you’re aware of how fucking sophisticated cheats are. Anti-cheat software isn’t looking for people with high K:D’s or or snappy aimbots. The server can’t tell if you can see through the walls. The server has no way to know what’s also running on your computer.
Anti-cheat is looking for signs and signatures of those tools cheaters use. And, no, it’s not as easy as looking for a process called “TEH-HAX0RS.exe”. It’s borderline virus levels of sneaky, simulating regular processes. And, just like malware, there is business incentive for these people to be a step ahead of the anti-cheats because stupid kids still keep buying these fucking things. Antivirus and Anticheat are both fighting basically the same people.
I’m not going to disagree that it sucks and some games just make it too fucking easy to begin with by having poor code and structure, but by and large, if it was easy to detect cheaters in the server, it would have been done by now.
If privacy is your number one priority, abso-fucking-lutely don’t play the game. Or at least use a dedicated PC or game console. That said, ruining the enjoyment of the game for everyone else by letting cheaters have a field day will be less acceptable to the game buying public.
I do have some understanding of how both local and server-side cheat detection work.
How do you think processing of video output streams downstream from the output port with usb input assistance back into the PC should best be detected client-side, for example?
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For everyone who says we don’t want ring 0 or kernel level “root kits” I would agree, but then whats the solution when you can easily defeat these anti cheat solutions by going kernel level?
Genuine question, is there a solution?
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So wildly incorrect that I’m convinced you’re trolling.
You can think that if it helps you sleep if you like.
I guess BRs must all have some sort of airdrop beginning, a deadly moving circle and permadeath. In which case I guess Apex, Warzone and PUBG itself ceased to be BRs since they introduced respawning. From now on, everything will be labelled “Arena Shooter”.
You’re putting words in my mouth I never said. I also said goodbye, because this conversation is going nowhere. You just can’t accept the fact that you could possibly be wrong can you?
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For everyone who says we don’t want ring 0 or kernel level “root kits” I would agree, but then whats the solution when you can easily defeat these anti cheat solutions by going kernel level?
Genuine question, is there a solution?
There is a 2-part solution:
- Build a game people enjoy playing more than winning.
- If you need an anti-cheat solution, design one on a server side.
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I do have some understanding of how both local and server-side cheat detection work.
How do you think processing of video output streams downstream from the output port with usb input assistance back into the PC should best be detected client-side, for example?
Real fucking problem, yeah.
But think on this scale:
- Cheats built into game and anyone can turn on
- Cheats downloaded for free
- Cheats cost money and sophisticated
- Cheats require hardware and setup time and probably more money
The number of people that will cheat is less at each tier right? What if we remove the risk of ban at each tier vs a higher risk of ban?
If a dev does fucking nothing at those mid tiers, more people will cheat. If they build a reputation and ban a bunch of people, it encourages more people to give it up. Stubborn ones persist and go down to the next tier but they will be fewer in number. Ideally we make it so the cheat doesn’t work at each tier but each one is also harder to prevent.
It’s about playing the numbers. 1 in 100 players cheating sucks. 1 in 1000 cheaters isn’t great. 1 in a million? That’s a lot better risk.
So what happens if devices become popular and common? Great question. I guess everyone that gives a shit quits playing games? Every game is locked down with stream fed into AI, wave our hands and “magically” a server is making the decision for us?
I don’t know.
Until we get to that point, I accept the tools that work for now.
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For everyone who says we don’t want ring 0 or kernel level “root kits” I would agree, but then whats the solution when you can easily defeat these anti cheat solutions by going kernel level?
Genuine question, is there a solution?
What’s more important? Stopping people cheating at games via technology or digital freedom to prevent all kinds power abuse? (Forced obsolescence, surveillance, anti-features, etc)
Unauthorized Bread: Real rebellions involve jailbreaking IoT toasters
Cory Doctorow’s book, Radicalized, is up for a CBC award. To celebrate, here’s an excerpt.
Ars Technica (arstechnica.com)
I don’t care that much about games to be honest. If they get caught cheating, how about just legal action?
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You’re putting words in my mouth I never said. I also said goodbye, because this conversation is going nowhere. You just can’t accept the fact that you could possibly be wrong can you?
You just can’t accept the fact that you could possibly be wrong can you?
True I did double down on my completely facetious initial comment.
The conversation isn’t going nowhere because of me though. You’re obviously completely ready to discuss elements of game design and completely accepting that you might be wrong.
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You just can’t accept the fact that you could possibly be wrong can you?
True I did double down on my completely facetious initial comment.
The conversation isn’t going nowhere because of me though. You’re obviously completely ready to discuss elements of game design and completely accepting that you might be wrong.
Haha. “My initial comment was facetious”, the go to weasel phrase for someone that knows they’re wrong.
Go look up the official brand guidelines for the finals then think very hard about what kind of game it is. You don’t have to tell me, but I know you’re going to respond with an attempt at a snarky or “witty” reply anyway because you can’t help yourself.
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Real fucking problem, yeah.
But think on this scale:
- Cheats built into game and anyone can turn on
- Cheats downloaded for free
- Cheats cost money and sophisticated
- Cheats require hardware and setup time and probably more money
The number of people that will cheat is less at each tier right? What if we remove the risk of ban at each tier vs a higher risk of ban?
If a dev does fucking nothing at those mid tiers, more people will cheat. If they build a reputation and ban a bunch of people, it encourages more people to give it up. Stubborn ones persist and go down to the next tier but they will be fewer in number. Ideally we make it so the cheat doesn’t work at each tier but each one is also harder to prevent.
It’s about playing the numbers. 1 in 100 players cheating sucks. 1 in 1000 cheaters isn’t great. 1 in a million? That’s a lot better risk.
So what happens if devices become popular and common? Great question. I guess everyone that gives a shit quits playing games? Every game is locked down with stream fed into AI, wave our hands and “magically” a server is making the decision for us?
I don’t know.
Until we get to that point, I accept the tools that work for now.
Gonna skip most of your response because you fail to understand that barriers to entry in these area continue falling and are unstoppable. You will have to address this.
Thanks for the discussion, but I don’t think there is much more that you and I could discuss productively here.
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Haha. “My initial comment was facetious”, the go to weasel phrase for someone that knows they’re wrong.
Go look up the official brand guidelines for the finals then think very hard about what kind of game it is. You don’t have to tell me, but I know you’re going to respond with an attempt at a snarky or “witty” reply anyway because you can’t help yourself.
Did you read my username, or did you ignore that text like all the other text on your screen aside from the corporate messaging? At least you managed to understand my whole bit, if nothing else.
Meet you back here in a few years when Embark reveal their next game.
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Gonna skip most of your response because you fail to understand that barriers to entry in these area continue falling and are unstoppable. You will have to address this.
Thanks for the discussion, but I don’t think there is much more that you and I could discuss productively here.
Ha, this was no fucking discussion. You moved the goal posts, I pointed out why that new goal is still not a problem today, and you’re now trying to worm your way out by saying you didn’t read my response.
Classy. Fucking classy.
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There is a 2-part solution:
- Build a game people enjoy playing more than winning.
- If you need an anti-cheat solution, design one on a server side.
You can’t expect the assholes who need to win to “just enjoy the game” when they aren’t playing multiplayer games for that reason.
As for point 2, every server-sode solution I’ve seen has just not worked lol. RuneScape comes to mind when I think of how much that seems to fail
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You can’t expect the assholes who need to win to “just enjoy the game” when they aren’t playing multiplayer games for that reason.
As for point 2, every server-sode solution I’ve seen has just not worked lol. RuneScape comes to mind when I think of how much that seems to fail
Point taken. Still, I think designing the game around positive things like team work and rewarding experiences is important.
I can’t see why server side solutions won’t work when implemented properly. High ping? Just provide more servers and allow players to filter that out or do that automatically.
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Did you read my username, or did you ignore that text like all the other text on your screen aside from the corporate messaging? At least you managed to understand my whole bit, if nothing else.
Meet you back here in a few years when Embark reveal their next game.
Yeah bro you don’t get to say absolutely wrong things as fact, defend them as fact, then say “hurr durr my username is no /s i was being super duper sarcastic the whole time”. I mean you can say it, but everyone sees right through you.
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Yeah bro you don’t get to say absolutely wrong things as fact, defend them as fact, then say “hurr durr my username is no /s i was being super duper sarcastic the whole time”. I mean you can say it, but everyone sees right through you.
Hmmm, maybe you should read what I said again.
Game design is one of the only things that I try to engage with seriously on Lemmy. I was genuinely discussing elements of genres that aren’t as cut and dry as you dismissively poo pooed without actually providing any backup for what elements you think are crucial to any of those genres. There was no real discussion, but thst was not because of me throwing in some sarcasm occasionally.
The mods have removed some of my comments for some reason and I guess I will just stop engaging seriously here and go back to shitposting. Trying to talk seriously about elements of game design is obviously frowned upon and just repeatedly calling someone stupid and wrong is encouraged.
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For everyone who says we don’t want ring 0 or kernel level “root kits” I would agree, but then whats the solution when you can easily defeat these anti cheat solutions by going kernel level?
Genuine question, is there a solution?
There’s many solutions ive heard like
- Associating an account with a Gov ID so bans are more permanent
- Maybe a reputation system? get kicked enough, or downvoted enough and you get permabanned
- many channels like ltt on the wan show and SomeOrdinayGamers (and many others) have talked about it extensively, but there’s always a drawback
All these options are based on some level of trust with someone or something and can be easily taken advantage of, but these are concepts nonetheless.
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There’s many solutions ive heard like
- Associating an account with a Gov ID so bans are more permanent
- Maybe a reputation system? get kicked enough, or downvoted enough and you get permabanned
- many channels like ltt on the wan show and SomeOrdinayGamers (and many others) have talked about it extensively, but there’s always a drawback
All these options are based on some level of trust with someone or something and can be easily taken advantage of, but these are concepts nonetheless.
I dont know why the first solution is even a suggestion. It’s worse than having kernel/ring 0 anti cheat. You’re literally associating yourself by your real identity
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I dont know why the first solution is even a suggestion. It’s worse than having kernel/ring 0 anti cheat. You’re literally associating yourself by your real identity
You are correct as that is the whole point of that idea where you bind your ID to an account. The entire reason thats a suggestion (not that i like it at all either) is because of the fact anyone can evade:
- an account ban with a new account
- network ban with a vpn
- hardware ban with spoofed mac addresses, etc
In what other method is there to prevent some person from evading a ban? To answer your initial question, that is the reason. If Kenerl level anticheats are not acceptable then this is one of the only options left that allows us to bind some person to an account and actually enforce a permaban.
Yes:
- fake government IDs are a thing
- cracked/hacked/spoofed clients are a thing.
But otherwise, there is NOTHING you can tie an account to a person that’s avaliable to enforce a ban. Nothing is unhackable, or unspoofable. Literally a cat n mouse game that has no winners.
Even if it’s worse in your opinion than having kernal level anti-cheat, it’s picking between two deadly poisons. IMO i just dont play games that require anticheat, or play any competitive games. too toxic and stressful for me personally to even install something like that.
Technically Valve themselves is that. That have VAC-anticheat, which is connected to your account. unless you get money into your account soley through gift cards, they have your card info, or paypal. They have drm, but not kernel level. your CC has your legal name, and billing address. About as Government ID as it gets with honestly ANY game with microtransactions in it that allows you to put raw CC details in it.
// as a side thought/rant //
if it’s super necessary to play/engage with those games, why not have a seperate OS specifically for gaming? either to dual boot, or seperate pc altogether, and just pipe the display output as a PIP or use as a second monitor? then its seperated and not compromising of your actual OS?
It also comes down to other loooooads of other factors, but (IMO) it comes down the fact that companies overcharge, (insert other xyz reasons), which people dont want to pay full price or at all for so they pirate, which make companies put more and more invasive drms/anticheats, which snowballs. especially with online stuff, it’s because of the many bad actors (and with how lucrative that business is) that constantly abuse competitive games that IMO originated in good faith, but have had to clamp down super hard that made their protections soo bad. It’s the only way they can protect their playerbase, game, and sales reliably (insert denuvo controversies here).
TLDR: Pick a deadly poison, its all bad ideas. Imo, dont play live service games, and play more indie stuff.
